Author Topic: Exploring High Performance Motor Build  (Read 10833 times)

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2014, 02:16:22 PM »
 :mE>:

Ok Tod  where do I start?

What is the voltage to the motor? don't care about the battery pack..
What is the reinhart controller?  voltage range to motor?

You CAN NOT  :mA<: run high voltage and high amps, got to pick one or the other.

The motor you have is..A.O. Smith-313P285
2 pole
24 slot
23 turns
2 inhand
20 gauge wire
1-8 span
6- 4 group coils
2-Y

Ivan
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Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2014, 05:51:02 PM »
Todd:  So, that means that if a waverider controller will accept 600 VDC input and output in the 480 VAC RMS region....you could have possibly run the motor the way it was wound originally.  (Wired internally for high voltage)

(Depressing thought)

But in all reality, the standard insulation would not have stood up to vehicle duties. 

BTW:  You hear all sorts of voltage/current figures on the internet. A LOT of them are impossible to do without a PHD.........  A good rule of thumb is:

High volts/ low amps- low volts/high amps.....

We do the latter because our easy to get and cheapest controllers are Curtis.  They run around 70 VAC RMS.  Which means custom stator wiring.

The Rhineheart uses a higher voltage scheme.  (Meaning lower amperage also)

There is a slot limit, room wise.  Wind for high current or wind for high voltage, never both.

Assuming the waverider is in the 400 volt AC region (RMS), you will in most cases only "see" 70 amps at full throttle and for only seconds.  It will cruise at maybe 35-40 amps.

You go to a high voltage scheme to keep the amperage low.......

The AC controllers set a current curve internally (algorithm) and your foot asks for more
frequency to increase the motor RPM.  The algorithm compensates for what ever the motor needs to get there.  The frequency of the AC RMS current increases, so does whatever the motor needs to get there , thanks to the controller.

So, in essence, you can not "overdrive" or force the AC motor to accept more current than it needs.

We need to know what the top RMS voltage is for a Rhineheart controller.

BTW:  Have you priced one?

Miz 
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2014, 06:19:13 PM »
I'm not using a Rinehart, I'm building a DIY kit.  It will be built for 750 volts.

I want to run full pack voltage (740) to the motor, or as close to it as possible. 

I just listed the pack's current limit for reference, not to say I want that in the motor.

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2014, 07:03:34 PM »
I'm not using a Rinehart, I'm building a DIY kit.  It will be built for 750 volts.

I want to run full pack voltage (740) to the motor, or as close to it as possible. 

I just listed the pack's current limit for reference, not to say I want that in the motor.


 Your nuts Todd  :bx:

That motor could not be wound for 740 volt,  you would all most have to double the turns, 
and then you could not have enough inhand to handle any current.
:co<:  If you bought just one or two extra can goods a week and donated to a food bank   Nobody would go hungry.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2014, 07:49:14 PM »
Your nuts Todd  :bx:...
I've been told that before.  :sf<:



...That motor could not be wound for 740 volt,  you would all most have to double the turns, 
and then you could not have enough inhand to handle any current.
Thanks, the only way I know is to ask.

What about half that at 370v?

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2014, 08:00:43 PM »
...BTW:  Have you priced one?

Miz
I think the little one is around $6K, IIRC.  Racing costs money, one way or the other, that doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is what I get for the money.  It's a value thing, because I have to interrupt my normal low-budget/low-stress lifestyle, and take in really serious projects that I don't really want to do to raise the money - so it's always a serious question of whether or not it will ultimately be worth it to me.  What bothers me most about Rinehart is they have no self-learning capability, so you have to purchase a motor that it has already been programmed to work with, or pay RMS for two weeks of dyno time to pair it with your motor of choice.  All the motors that have the performance I desire are ridiculously over priced ($10K or more) and unnecessarily heavy because they're developed for typical (heavy) automotive applications.

Wavesculpter has self-learning, but is not quite the inverter RMS is, for the money.  Now, the DIY kits are out, and can be built to suit, unlike the DC kits that are kind of stuck at Curtis levels.

So, before I start building a traditional DC motor, I wanted to explore what's possible with AC.

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2014, 08:03:30 PM »
I love those DIY controllers. But there is only one way to make them work and about 10,000 ways to make smoke.  (At least for me that is.)

There are some really talented people out there, I'm not one of them.

Miz      :O):
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2014, 06:25:15 AM »
That's definitely true on the Open Revolt DC controller Miz.  The design and specifics are completely hashed out (if you just follow the basic kit), but the amount of soldering on the boards, and all the opportunities to get something wrong, opens the door for those "10,000 ways to make to smoke".  The new AC kit, on the other hand, is wide open in design and there are a lot of possible wrong decisions that can be made, and it has to be programmed to the motor.  However, being based on 3 IGBTs and a few large capacitors, instead of all those MOSFETs and small capacitors, the odds of totally screwing up the power stage (where the true destructive power is flowing) are substantially reduced.  Johannes (the developer) is more actively involved too, since his own EV is running with/dependent on one.  Paul's work on the Open  Revolt is good, but he's busy with other stuff now, leaving "support" to finding people on one of the forums that are willing to explore, diagnose, and consult.

I would give the AC kit a try, but would just buy a DC controller.  One of the guys on DIY bought one, and had it soldered up and running his Siemens motor in no time.  He has a lot of programming to do now, but didn't seem to have any issues with getting to that point.

Offline HighHopes

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 04:24:11 PM »
Quote
What bothers me most about Rinehart is they have no self-learning capability

Texas Instruments just released publicly their algorithm for self learning motor drive which is super interesting to me.  i think it won't be long before DIY crowd picks up on this and really starts to explore. 

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 07:35:42 AM »
Now this AC controller plan is the best I have seen so-far.  Meaning it is at least plausible.

I have seen and watched SO many on both DIY EV and youtube that are at best toys or outright dangerous.  Everyone seems to declare success if the motor turns over a few revolutions.

Having worked with controllers, both DC, BLDC, AC industrial and the common RC ESC type.....I can say that I have just scratched the surface.  I have nothing but admiration for guys like High Hopes, Tylerwatts, Fewtoomany and others with a better  knowledge of their requirements and operation.

I will be watching this thread and others with any hope of actually producing a workable DIY AC controller.

I am content with my 1238 Curtis, but the lure of a home-built unit is too sweet to ignore.  It goes along with our program of having the capability of rewinding (building) your car's motor.  One day, it would be nice to be able to build everything on the car except for the cells....and I would even look at that if it were anywhere near possible.

Miz

1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 07:51:23 AM »
...It goes along with our program of having the capability of rewinding (building) your car's motor...
On that note: I guess my plans/hopes are too much for this little motor?  No big deal, if so, I only have $30 and a little time in the motor so far.  If it can't be rewound for the higher voltage/performance I am currently seeking, I would like to explore rewinding it to be paired with a Curtis controller for a future (low performance) motorcycle project.

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 08:10:23 AM »
...It goes along with our program of having the capability of rewinding (building) your car's motor...
On that note: I guess my plans/hopes are too much for this little motor?  No big deal, if so, I only have $30 and a little time in the motor so far.  If it can't be rewound for the higher voltage/performance I am currently seeking, I would like to explore rewinding it to be paired with a Curtis controller for a future (low performance) motorcycle project.

I really don't understand, why you say "low performance" curtis controllers has driven cars over a 100+ mph, what do you want?  An ac 31 or 35 on a bike ????????? :Ha<:
:co<:  If you bought just one or two extra can goods a week and donated to a food bank   Nobody would go hungry.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 08:23:50 AM »
I really don't understand, why you say "low performance" curtis controllers has driven cars over a 100+ mph, what do you want?  An ac 31 or 35 on a bike ????????? :Ha<:
Because "performance" is a relative term.  I come to EVs from the world of ICE racing.  I come to EV bikes from the world of liter-class, ICE, crotch rocket, street-legal, dragbikes.  130-140mph was our highway cruising speed (no joke/no exaggeration), and acceleration to over 100mph was, let's say, "invigorating".  With better batteries and a little more controller, Scrape will easily do 100mph right now.  It accelerates to a, rider limited, 50-ish MPH in a very short space with more than half of the throttle range left. (Have suspension/chassis work to complete before going faster.)

It feels pitifully slow, to me... :kA>:

An AC 31 or 35 would probably feel like a 500-600cc touring bike, to me.

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 08:44:32 AM »
I come from racing also.  I was a stockcar crew chief for 20 years. I supported my family with it.  Along with the sprinkling of boats, motorcycles and aircraft.  Try a P38 with twin Merlins for fun.

All I am saying is this: If I were building a reasonably fast street motorcycle on a budget, an AC31 or AC35 kit would be a good starting place.

No budget?  I could give you contact for a company in N/C that hand builds Copper rotors.  They also water cut stator lams in your choice of 10 different steel alloys.  Build yourself a real motor to go with your controller.

There are some wonderful 9 second electric drag bikes out there, but they are as long as a freight train....LOL     They do not turn well.

Your controller and motor can be a nice combo for a reasonably fast street bike.

If you want instant stupid fast and a range of 2 miles, go DC like the drag bikes.

Miz     
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 09:25:14 AM »
...a reasonably fast street motorcycle...
...a reasonably fast street bike...
Not in the cards for this particular project.



...If you want instant stupid fast... go DC...Miz   
That's more like it, and most signs do seem to be pointing to DC.  There is an off-the-shelf AC option - the EVDrive EVD150HV-Rcr-90s package(http://www.evdrive.com/products/evd-motor-controller/) - 240hp/10K RPM - $20K :Wo^:, but (money aside) it changes my project, ideologically and physically, and I don't think I like the changes.



...No budget?  I could give you contact for a company in N/C that hand builds Copper rotors.  They also water cut stator lams in your choice of 10 different steel alloys.  Build yourself a real motor to go with your controller...
The problem there is the technical side of designing an AC motor; far beyond where I ever want to go, I like developing the comprehensive.  The EVD package is also probably a steal, in that vein.