Author Topic: Exploring High Performance Motor Build  (Read 10835 times)

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 09:29:23 AM »
So, I think it's well-established that this little motor isn't going to be "high performance".

I still want to rewind it and build it.

What would it take to make it run nice on a Curtis controller?  It will eventually be used on a really lightweight bike, and whatever performance it delivers is fine.

Offline HighHopes

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 06:01:43 PM »
Quote
One day, it would be nice to be able to build everything on the car except for the cells....and I would even look at that if it were anywhere near possible.

miz, i think that is here already.  i read a book on how to build from scratch a DIY kit car (welding skillz a must), you & ivan know how to rebuild the AC motor and i have a decade experience on custom controllers for high power high reliability inverters.  we haven't put it together yet, but it will come (if not us, then someone else following this forumn).  and on the subject batteries.. i was reading a forumn somewhere of this bike racer talking about his electric crotch-rocket and he went in to a lot of detail on how to buy individual lithium cells and wire them up properly.. to me that's pretty much building the battery yourself.  i thought he did such a great job i bookmarked it for a potential future project.

for a great performance rating, surely acceleration is a key factor.. and nothing produces acceleration as having maximum torque at zero speed .. i.e., the electric motor  :)

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 07:14:40 PM »
I extracted the stator laminations from the steel housing today.  I just, very carefully, split the housing, without touching the laminations.


Then, finished un-winding it.  I cut the other end of the wires with the chop saw, and then simply pulled the remaining straight wires out of the slots.


The rotor and stator laminations together.  My evil plan for this motor will be based on a custom aluminum housing and shortened shaft.

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 07:42:12 PM »
Todd:

Just looking:

The rotor looks nice as it has been smooth profiled nicely.  I hope the rotor/stator air gap is tight.

The stator has nice big slots and a goodly amount of back iron, too.

You will need to keep a stub shaft out the front end for the encoder drive....

Otherwise it looks like a pretty good design for what it is. (a standard duty industrial motor.)

When you get your slot papers and sticks, get the very best insulation rating.

That will not make it more powerful, just able to get hot and survive.  Mine has been 160C many times and had the controller shut off, but it is still up and kicking with no signs of melting, bubbling or burning.  I run it to 120C routinely in the summer.....with no problems.  The motor temperature is determined by the length of road from light to light and how long it sits at the stop light before going again.  90C seems to be the best average, a piece of cake for Ivan's motors. (The way he builds them) Blowing air through with an aux blower only means about 10C-15C reduction.....So I usually don't mess with it.

I would wind your motor 4 pole, 70 volt, two turns and 12 in hand minimum.  It has to do with slot fill.

BTW: I need you to stack a bunch of wires in the slot and tell us how many strands in the slot.  That tells circular mills of copper. It then is converted to 18 Ga. and tells how many in the slot. That is divided by Two to get the in-hand amount. 

That stator can be wound really easy when bare naked like that!

Miz
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 08:38:55 PM »
The original wind had,

23 turns
2 inhand
20 gauge wire
1-8 span
6- 4 group coils  dual layer

so there was 92 wires in each slot  dual layer  20 gauge
94208 circular mills total per slot

so 12 inhand two turns 18 gauge 38976 circular mils
times two for dual layer 77952 cir mils would leave enough room for the added insulation.

each pole 2 coils slot 1-5 2-6  span

18 gauge 1624 cir mils
20 gauge 1024 cir mils

Ivan
:co<:  If you bought just one or two extra can goods a week and donated to a food bank   Nobody would go hungry.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 09:15:39 PM »
...I hope the rotor/stator air gap is tight...
Indeed.  I had to be very careful putting the rotor in there - just barely fits.



...
You will need to keep a stub shaft out the front end for the encoder drive...
...When you get your slot papers and sticks, get the very best insulation rating...
Yup and yup.



...
That stator can be wound really easy when bare naked like that!...Miz
That's what I was thinking.  :Ah#:



...I would wind your motor 4 pole, 70 volt, two turns and 12 in hand minimum....
...so 12 inhand two turns 18 gauge 38976 circular mils
times two for dual layer 77952 cir mils would leave enough room for the added insulation.

each pole 2 coils slot 1-5 2-6  span...
I'm still learning, so I have to get my head wrapped around exactly what all that means.  Please forgive the newb (dumb?) questions, in the meantime.

So that I can design the bike around the motor's potential, what would that  (12 in-hand, 2 turns, 18-gauge) look like?
  • I'm not sure if Ivan's post means 2 or 4 pole? (the bold/underlined part)
  • What type of performance do you guess it would have (hp, torque, RPM range, etc)?
  • Would it then be able to run a standard Curtis type 96 volt controller?
  • Would a 144v controller be pushing things too far/show any benefit?
  • It has been suggested that HPEVS motors can actually go out to 200v, extending the torque curve and RPM to around 8000 - similar results in this case, or don't even think about it? :HH*:

And, I forgot to say - thanks guys! :)

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 06:31:23 AM »
Quote
So that I can design the bike around the motor's potential, what would that  (12 in-hand, 2 turns, 18-gauge) look like?
  • I'm not sure if Ivan's post means 2 or 4 pole? (the bold/underlined part)
  • What type of performance do you guess it would have (hp, torque, RPM range, etc)?
  • Would it then be able to run a standard Curtis type 96 volt controller?
  • Would a 144v controller be pushing things too far/show any benefit?
  • It has been suggested that HPEVS motors can actually go out to 200v, extending the torque curve and RPM to around 8000 - similar results in this case, or don't even think about it? :HH*:

And, I forgot to say - thanks guys! :)

The 144v controller pushes LESS it just means more batteries for more amp hours, does not
feed any more to the motor, its actually less current to motor, 500 amps.

I don't know where you come up with the 200v, HPEVS motors?

The wind would be 4 pole.

 (hp, torque, RPM range, )  big ?  would have to dyno.

Ivan
:co<:  If you bought just one or two extra can goods a week and donated to a food bank   Nobody would go hungry.

Offline Ivan

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2014, 07:32:16 AM »
 :lA^:  Here is a layout for that motor.  any ????

Ya do this 3 times and ya have a 3 phase motor.

slot 5  start 2cd phase 60 degrees
slot 9  start 3rd phase 120 degrees

Piece of cake?  :<bs:
:co<:  If you bought just one or two extra can goods a week and donated to a food bank   Nobody would go hungry.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2014, 08:05:46 AM »
The 144v controller pushes LESS it just means more batteries for more amp hours, does not
feed any more to the motor, its actually less current to motor, 500 amps...
Yes, it's less current to the motor, but more voltage, which extends the torque out to higher RPM.  Here are HPEVS (AC50) graphs:

108v/650a (http://www.hpevs.com/Site/power_graphs/imperial/peak/pdf/ac-50/108-volt/650-amp/ac50%20108%20650%20amp%20imperial%20peak.pdf)
  • 75.83hp peak at just under 4000RPM
  • Torque is 121.39 to start, drops at after 107.23 at just under 4000RPM

144v/500a (http://www.hpevs.com/Site/images/torque-curves/ac-50/144%20Volt/Imperial%20pdf%20graphs/AC50%20144%20volt%20500%20amp/Peak%20graphs/ac50%20144%20volt%20500%20amp%20imperial%20peak.pdf)
  • 87.30hp peak at almost 6000RPM
  • Torque is less, with 86.29 to start, but extends out to almost 5500RPM before it drops from 80.39

For my featherweight bike builds, I would prefer the later, unless the voltage is too high.



...I don't know where you come up with the 200v, HPEVS motors?...
There are no graphs, no known testing.  It was something that was discussed and the information (that they can be pushed out to 200v, extending the torque curve) was supposedly obtained from someone at HPEVS.  Curtis just doesn't offer a controller with that high of a voltage ceiling, so it isn't a published fact.  I'll try to find that thread, when I have some free time.

I can build a 200v/650a controller from the DIY kit, and set whatever limits are appropriate.  I was just curious is this little motor would deliver results similar to how HPEVS motors do, with increased voltage?


... (hp, torque, RPM range, )  big ?  would have to dyno...
Gotcha.  Was just fishing for a guess. :)




...The wind would be 4 pole...
...Here is a layout for that motor.  any ????

Ya do this 3 times and ya have a 3 phase motor.

slot 5  start 2cd phase
slot 11 start 3rd phase
Thanks a million Ivan - awesome!  :Tt0:

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 09:41:04 AM »
Playing a hunch here, if you're willing to humor me (if not, no problemo)...

Not worrying so much about torque, and focusing mostly on RPM, what would this motor look like:
  • Wound with 18ga wire
  • wound as a 2-pole motor
  • 200 volts to the motor
  • targeting 10K RPM, if possible

Here's why I ask:  while thinking about what I would do with the motor, in the lower power configuration we've been discussing, I have always had this plan lingering for a motor built into the swingarm of a bike - for which this little motor would be perfect.  I started playing with it in CAD last night, before I lost consciousness, with Scrape's (my race bike) rear wheel.  Somewhere between that and reading Ivan's posts and specs today, the idea of an AC/DC hybrid hit me.
  • My DC motor mounted conventionally, and focused on its specialty - incredible low-end torque per lb of motor weight
  • The little AC motor in the swingarm, kind like a jackshaft with a dual sprocket (chain from DC to AC to wheel).
  • Both  running 200 volts max, gear reductions plotted to put each in its sweet spot at the right time.
  • DC motor accelerates the bike from a start, and AC motor comes online before the DC motor peaks.
  • DC motor cuts out at RPM limit, and AC motor keeps pulling up to its red line; almost like an electronic gearshift.
  • Also have regen from AC motor.
  • Weight of the bike is minimally effected because the AC motor's gut are only about 15-20lbs and the extra material in the swingarm is all aluminum (the EVDrive, Remy-based, motor is 40% heavier than these two combined.

Yes, I know, I'm nuts... :mE>:

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 01:05:56 PM »


Ya Todd   :dD(:   when you figure out what you want, let me know.
In the mean time, if I was you, I would stock up on lots of HardMikes.  :Tt0:
I'm exploring possibilities - but, like I said, if it's too much of an inconvenience I understand.  Not many people like to go where I go...

I think I am going to explore this AC/DC hybrid concept, with this motor wound for 200 volts, 2-pole, high RPM.  I like what I see in CAD, and I think I see something I can explore the potential of long-term (simple rewind now, copper rotor later, possibly better laminations later...).  If I'm wrong, and it's a flop, I just put the other swingarm back on Scrape, and build another bike around whatever it is capable of - there's no serious downside, and any way it goes, I come out with more knowledge and experience, and one or two sweet bikes.

Offline HighHopes

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 04:29:28 PM »
what if you physically bonded both DC & AC rotor shafts together (flexible coupling) and piggy-backed the arrangement?

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2014, 04:52:24 PM »
I actually like the Hybrid idea.  They need to be stacked to stay narrow to fit in your packaging area.  SO, Maybe belt drive?  Gilmer toothed to transmit the torque.

2 pole will double the RPM and also half the torque.  Alone it would be a loser, but with a DC motor to do the low end duties, It sounds workable to me.

Miz
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.

Offline toddshotrods

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2014, 06:44:44 PM »
what if you physically bonded both DC & AC rotor shafts together (flexible coupling) and piggy-backed the arrangement?
...They need to be stacked to stay narrow to fit in your packaging area...
Yup, what Miz said!  End to end, shaft to shaft would be over twenty inches long.  One of the things I like most about Scrape is it's narrow, and has really good cornering clearance for a radically lowered bike (over 5" drop).




...SO, Maybe belt drive?  Gilmer toothed to transmit the torque...
I need chains because of the abuse it will be subjected to.  The old Buell guys, who ride hard like I do, regularly snap even the upgraded belts; and the serious ones convert to chain.  I'm going to do it like this:




...I actually like the Hybrid idea...

...2 pole will double the RPM and also half the torque.  Alone it would be a loser, but with a DC motor to do the low end duties, It sounds workable to me...
Thanks Miz - that's how it looks to me...  :Tt0:

Offline mizlplix

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Re: Exploring High Performance Motor Build
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2014, 09:20:04 PM »
OK. Back to engineer mode.

Two issues. One small other larger.....

1- A foot operated "shifter" to electrically switch between the two. Do able.

2- The DC motor will not RPM with the AC motor and will sling the comms from their beds.
     You need to uncouple them in "high".

Dog clutch. (a mechanical latch)

Sprag clutch, looks like a roller bearing and turns in one direction only, but locks in the other. (An automatic locking clutch under power and unlocks when un-powered)

Over running clutch. Have you ever seen an old Ford starter bendix drive for a Flathead V8?  The DC motor could have one of those on the drive end shaft locking the gear to the shaft. On rotation (Power) of the DC motor , like in the starter, you get locked up output power. When the DC motor (Starter) is un-powered, the drive unwinds and allows the shaft to rotate freely.

Needs some thought.

Miz
1930 Ford Speedster, AC50, full manual powerglide, 6.14gears, 38-130AH CALBs.