Ivan's Garage, Electric Vehicles, AC Electric Motors

Electric Vehicle AC Motors => Our Test Mule => Topic started by: mizlplix on December 11, 2012, 12:54:41 AM

Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on December 11, 2012, 12:54:41 AM
                                                           Our Test "Mule"
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________



When doing any sort of development work, it is necessary to
have a test vehicle.  This is the one my work (study) group uses.

It is a 1930 Ford Model A Speedster. It weighs 1,900Lb. (862Kg).  Being an open style vehicle makes it wonderful to work on.

It is showed in this pic using an HPEV AC50 with a manual shift, direct coupled, powerglide with no torque converter.

This power train has been removed and the car is in the shop awaiting a freshly rewound 12" AC motor, which will be installed in a direct drive mode, with only an "electric" forward & reverse, by toggle switch.

Test results and pictures will be posted.  Keep watching.

miz
Title: Our test mule.
Post by: mizlplix on December 11, 2012, 01:16:26 AM
                                                   New Motor
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________


As stated above, my car is getting a face-lift by way of a new motor.

If you missed it, here is the old build thread:

 Click Here, link to Diy Electric Car (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1930-model-roadster-build-59659.html)

It was getting long and hard to read, as well as getting lost because
 of the fast posting rate on that EV site.  I wanted a "home" so  it could grow slowly without being too hard to find.

My car build will be continuing here in detail.

Miz   
Title: The emergency brake lever.
Post by: mizlplix on December 11, 2012, 08:22:11 PM
One of the things about going direct drive is that you lose the parking sector in the transmission.

So, I am hooking up my left rear parking brake cable to a custom fabricated lever mounted to the left side of the car.  It is outside the body like an old dirt track racer.

Miz
Title: The new motor.
Post by: mizlplix on December 18, 2012, 05:05:19 PM
                                                       The new Motor
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________

It was a 20HP, 230/480, 4 pole, 1850 RPM pump motor. 

It ran until the bearings went south and it refused to start one day.  The shop wanted too long to rebuild it, so the owner bought a new one.  We bought the core for $100.   

It is all aluminum, case and end bells.  Weight 220 Lbs. 

We have about $300 in wire and insulation.  We bought a new encoder for $140, two bearings for another $150 and about $35 for the therm resistor.

Ivan rewound it by hand (18 ga wire, 4 pole, 12 in hand two turns for 24 strand motor leads, delta connect no pole connections)

It ran on the test bench at: 60 VAC,  60 HZ, 65 Amps,  1750 RPM. 

Except for some clean  up and polyurethane clearcoat,  it seems road ready. 

Maybe we can run the Curtis optimization routine on it this weekend.

Miz

TOTAL:  $625 (Plus a pound of Ivan's skin and a blister on the pointer finger).
Title: The new motor.
Post by: mizlplix on December 21, 2012, 05:20:04 PM

YIKES!   This Behemoth is three times bigger than the one we took out.  The theory is that using the same weight car, same controller, same pack and on the same roads, the motor with the larger stator diameter and length will utilize the current more efficiently.  The AC50 was a little soft in torque from 0-3,000 RPM, then really took off until about 5,500 RPM where it starting to taper off and was about all in at 7,000 RPM.  The gearing was optimized for 2 transmission speeds. The car would do 129 MPH.....(Which we really didn't need).

The car did 0-60 MPH in 10.5 seconds using both gears, and 12.1 seconds using high gear only.

Our hope is that now with the big motor it will better the 12.1 second time and possibly the 10.5 time.  This is because the new 12" stator will give us back our 0-3,000 RPM torque at the cost of our top speed.  It will now have an estimated 70MPH top speed. (Perfect for an in town car.) 

A satisfactory direct drive vehicle needs to be light weight and geared to absolute perfection in order to take advantage of all of that low RPM torque.  (1,900 Lbs, 6.14 rear gears, 32" diameter tires and an estimated 4,800 RPM=74 MPH)   

Mizlplix

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 04, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
Greetings to all:

After a quick test run up and doing the first third part of the controller optimization routine, It looks like it is a runner!

It accelerates in RPMs really fast.  I was wondering about the 8" rotor diameter making it a little slow....<NOT>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqeuxGBFHas


The last two thirds of the procedure are conducted with the motor in the car and driveable.

So, You know where to find me for the foreseeable future.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 05, 2013, 05:57:14 AM
_______________________________________________________________

From here on out I will be adding content on a daily basis until the car
 is back up and running. 

TODAY:  I need to get the motor mocked up in the chassis and some motor
 mounts cludged together.  After that, It can come apart to have the finishing
 touches done to the motor.  The motor comes apart.

The rotor goes to the fab area so I can case harden the newly cut splines.   

The end bells go outdoors to have the old paint stripped off so they can get
 a brushed finish like the body and all the fins will get polished on the tips to
dress it up a little.  Following that, all the aluminum gets a clear polyurethane
coating prior to assembly.

The four long case bolts will get painted dark green like the body.

The encoder end bell gets two 1/4" NC holes drilled and tapped for the
 Rechargecar RPM sensor.

The encoder end shaft on the rotor gets drilled out to 3/8" I.D. for a 1"
 depth for the plastic insert that will drive my speedometer sensor.

The motor mounts get painted splattered silver like the chassis, then reassembly will begin.

I can't wait....

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 09, 2013, 02:51:19 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________
                Todays progress

The front crossmember is made and bolted in.  It is bolted to the old frame mounts and looks original.  The rear crossmember looks just like it.  It goes back where that small bracket is on the frame rail under the firewall.  They both will be connected with two parallel motor mounting rails.  The whole unit will be a bolt in and look like it was designed that way. 
Notice where the driveshaft ends at.


The end bells are proving to be difficult to clean.  I am on the 4th application of paint stripper.
Tomorrow I get mean.


The motor body is pretty good after it was baked and Ivan wire wheeled it,
 just some touch up to do.



The case hardening on the splines went well.   After removing the bearing and wrapping a wet cloth around the shaft, I used a #2 Rosebud heating tip to bring the temperature up quickly before sprinkling the compound on.
After 5 minutes and the bubbling stopped, it was OK to cool with water.  A file just slides off and the corner of the file barely makes a shiny nick.  Just right .  After a little clean up and some never-sieze it will be ready for installation.

I can almost hear it run.............

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 10, 2013, 05:02:47 AM
TODAY:

I complete the motor cradle and get it removed to get
painted. 

I also get the motor all cleaned up and assembled so I
can give it some Polyurethane clearcoat. 

Some of the motor control wiring needs rerouted from
the left side to the right side of the frame to suit the
new motor.

Wish me luck...Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on January 11, 2013, 09:02:56 PM
is this even a challenge for you!?   ;P

i am in awe of your build speed, keep it up!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 12, 2013, 06:12:29 AM
The actual fab is quite simple.  You just have to take time
 and make everything fit.

Thinking it up was a little harder.  The designing phase is
 always more trying for me.  I guess that is because it needs
 to look just right and not a bunch of scrap stuck onto the car.

That is the one thing it took me years to learn.......
From <functional but ugly> to <slow but nice>.  It is an
acquired attitude.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 12, 2013, 02:52:36 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________
                    Todays Progress

The motor mounting cradle is finished and bolted in.






The end bells proved to be stubborn so I just primed and painted them.
 This is just an idea what it will look like.

More tomorrow.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 13, 2013, 04:19:28 PM
WELL-WELL-WELL, Here we have another Today, so I need another name....OK, hows this:
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________ 
            I can almost hear it run!


Sunday was somewhat productive.  I got the motor center case cleaned and it assembled....
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/596647B2-4DB4-4052-B88D-918F654B151C-656-000002A7439C25FC.jpg)
OK-OK, the picture is crappy, live with it.   The motor is just set in so I can align it with the driveshaft, then drill the holes....tomorrow.



The encoder end shaft has (of coarse) the encoder,, the RPM sensor for my tach and the end of it has an insert to drive the generator for my Autometer speedo.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/8D82BFA7-BE5D-4401-B0DA-03CB0760756D-656-000002A73771084B.jpg) 
I drilled a 5/16" hole-1" deep and then cut off the end of the powerglide output gear (Plastic) and drove it into the shaft.  It has the correct square hole for the drive cable.  The sensor will be mounted to the aluminum end cap (not shown).

More Monday evening....Yahoo!

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 14, 2013, 02:17:36 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________
                                  Mondays progress

I got the motor mounted, driveshaft in, encoder and RPM sensors mounted. 
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/DEB9387D-79F1-406C-A276-E901E1AB56F1-656-00000342CC6BA187.jpg)
The base and stand offs were made by me.  The mount bracket was supplied
 by Rechargecar with their kit.  I can not say enough how easy this sensor kit was to
 install and adapt to my motor.  I used a 4 screw ring to simulate a V8 engine
 signal.  Most all tachs work with it and all will with some minor wiring changes
 to the sensor harness.

Later EDITT: I have the Rechargecar sensor hooked up to my Autometer speedo
 and it works nicely, I can run both off of one sensor and eliminate the second sensor...Yah!



The motor sits there like it belongs.  I have Kevlar sleeving over the motor leads
 to clean it up a little.  My motor electrics run down the right side of the motor this
 time around.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/A971E4B0-5994-4845-B194-0BC3494E2F38-656-00000342FE25E312.jpg)
This is a good end-on view.


This is kinda how it looks from the side, but I need to get the radiator and shell
 on as they give it a whole different look.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/C8EF24F6-1DE7-43F8-8D50-04A44523ECA0-656-000003437F4F1A2E.jpg)

Tomorrow will get the rest together.  Although the car drives at this point,
 the last 2/3rds of the controller optimization routine needs to be done. 
Then I can get a 0-60 MPH time and a steady 40 MPH cruise amp draw
value to compare with the AC50/powerglide I just removed.   

 Miz
 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on January 14, 2013, 07:35:24 PM
Fun coincidence, driving through town for work, I see this awesome little car pulling out of the drive!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 15, 2013, 05:13:24 AM
LOL, yea...  When you waved, I just waved back, I get a lot of
 that when driving the little car.  Then on second look I realized
 who it was...

I had just set the motor in and was turning the car around to do the
 radiator and shell.  I like to sweep the floor and pick up a little too.

Miz



Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 15, 2013, 05:35:25 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ______________
Today, I was making my front cover.  It goes over the encoder
 and RPM sensors to keep dirt out.  It also mounts the small pulse
counter that operates my speedo.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/30AAAB7A-04AF-4321-9ECE-41B51CFAF1BE-156-000000E957783F3C.jpg)
The pulse counter is driven by a small square cable 2" long.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/0812A33E-9BB9-4675-9035-08897A7ABCFF-156-000000E96095C46B.jpg)

It is a 5" aluminum sauce cooking pan.   $6.95-WalMart

They also had a coffee pot, but it was very thin.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 17, 2013, 06:21:31 AM
Yahoo!

The dreaded drive cover is all mounted.  I need to hook up
 2 wires and check for speedo operation.  Then mount the
radiator/coolant hoses to the controller and fill the system.

The seats are back in already ,so all I need to do is to
perform the last two steps in the motor characterization
 procedure.

I am geared for 70 MPH top speed.  As this is an "In town"
car, 99% of my driving is at 45 MPH.  I might do a 1 mile
sprint up the expressway at 65 MPH.  (Most rare)

My strategy is to have a powerful motor in the 0-4000 RPM
 range.  (The area where the AC50 was weakest without
the powerglide). 


Step 1 was to do the "auto run" portion where the controller
 does 3 pulls and stresses the new motor to "see" if it will
work at all and is in the accepted range for the controller. 
At the end of this part, the controller sets the field
weakening value
to ZERO to start the tests from.

Step 2= the BASE SPEED test.   <Fully charge the pack>
Set the FW (FW = field weakening) base speed to my motor's
 top RPM (4,800 RPM's). From a stop, set the throttle to the
 floor and accelerate.  (It will not be very fast as the FW
setting is at zero)  The motor will reach a plateau and
slow it's RPM climb.  At that point, stop the
 car.  Remember the RPM where it started to slow down
 subtract 200 RPM and set that as the FW base speed.
 Cycle the key switch.

Step 3=FW test.  Set "capture speed 1 and capture speed
2 to values close to your max RPM setting.  CAP1=4,400 and
 CAP 2- 4,600

Accelerate to RPM greater than CAP 2.  If you can not, increase
the FW setting until you can. Then read and record CAP 1 and
 CAP 2.   Increase the FW setting and repeat.  Keep repeating
 until there is no further gains (time to RPM loss= gain). At some
point you will reach CAP 1 but not CAP 2...you are getting close
 to your value. Set your FW parameter to the last value that gave
 a gain that got you to your max RPM.  Cycle the Key switch.

That should be it.

Now, having done that procedure, I can see how the FW setting
 can be altered to give more economical pack life.  My AC50 had
a 90% FW value.  It would cruise at 90 Amps @ 40 MPH.  At the
 loss of some acceleration time, I could turn the FW down a little
 to extend my mileage.  Especially if I live in flat terrain (I do) and
the acceleration is tolerable.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on January 17, 2013, 06:11:57 PM
What did you're FW end up at?






Answer: 10% F/W and 1% rate....Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 17, 2013, 08:20:23 PM
After the controller performs the 1st. phase of the motor optimization routine, It sets the FW value at zero (0). 

That is so when you run the 2nd. phase test to determine the FW base speed, the FW does not influence the result.

Then the 3rd. phase of the test (is 0 to a set RPM runs) while varying the FW value to choose what the motor "likes" best.
(You keep getting faster acceleration times until it begins to get slower.  Back up to the quickest FW figure and set the controller).


You can fudge the FW base speed some to affect the low RPM torque, but the top end torque IS the FW percentage.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 17, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
I had a small set back today.  The 14 year old Toshiba laptop has started acting up and I can not proceed with the optimization till it is fixed.  Curses and rats!

About 15-20 minutes and I could have been done.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on January 17, 2013, 10:08:12 PM
Everything holds up for one, little, annoyance
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 18, 2013, 05:39:40 AM
Yah, during the build, I had 4 or 5 items that I had bought that did not work right out-of-the-box....GRRRR

SO, ....... Patience is a learned thing.  I  certainly have learned.


I need to do some other things too...like the junkyard driveshaft vibrates a little and needs a new tube. So, taking this as a plus,  I think  I will move the motor back one set of holes and place it where (I think) it really needs to go.

But, TODAY, I am setting up a desktop mid tower out in the garage.  I can at least change parameters.  I lose the ability of a "Capture" feature to compare results, but I can just use a stopwatch.  It will be slower to go back to change parameters each run, but I still can finish this way. 

More later (Hopefully)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 21, 2013, 06:48:36 AM
I am going to be out of town this week.  Sorry to all who are following this project.

Here is a "finished" pic:
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/87932AEF-498C-4660-AC3A-C6563C0B1CFD-156-00000329F0F6F77E.jpg)

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/C8EF24F6-1DE7-43F8-8D50-04A44523ECA0-656-000003437F4F1A2E.jpg)

NOTE:  The new motor will "torque" the mount a little under acceleration, so I need to fab and install an upper torque brace at the drive end on the left side.

Later, Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on January 25, 2013, 10:38:37 AM
Just in case anyone is interested in a size comparison:  The AC50 and the new motor, side by side.
If I can, I will get another one with both sitting on the floor.

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/E6E374E4-19D7-4A63-B368-1EB31E08DDFD-811-0000029DB47EAA36.jpg)
The AC50 has a case O.D. of 8" and the new motor has a rotor
 O.D. of 8". The new motor rotor is the size of the AC50!

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 04, 2013, 11:46:30 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _____________________

      Optimizing the new motor

I finally got back into the shop to do some more on the car.
 I set the hand held monitor to do the run in section of the
 procedure. With the car up on stands and clear of the floor.
 It did two pulls, had a maximum current of 535
amps and the motor got up to 107 C. at the end of the test.

I set the capture speeds at 30 MPH and 60 MPH and did some
zero to 60 MPH runs.  I recorded each run, the time for each
segment (0-30 and 0-60 MPH)

This test sets the slip gain. I got the best average times with
 the slip gain set at 3.30 but the controller puts the slip back
at 3.20 whenever I exit the parameter.

I read the controller recommendation for the Field
 Weakening base speed and set it for 770 RPM.

I need a fully charged pack for the next (and last) part, so
It is charging.  It is setting the field weakening.

After I perform the field weakening tests, I will post the result.

Later...
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 05, 2013, 07:14:08 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ __________
    Reality sets in

After I had topped off the pack, I went out to finish the motor optimization.  HA-HA, what an optimist I was.
If you believe the Curtis supplied procedure, you would be done in an hour and go on with life.....

Reality is, The Slip gain, Field Weakening percentage, Field Weakening Base Speed,  Field Weakening rate and the Slip Gain are so inter related that every small change of one requires a change of the others in that search for the "sweet spot" where the motor is performing best through out it's operating range.

So far, I have a setting where I can destroy the tires, up to 1,100  RPM then it tapers off to where it barely drags the car along...LOL (But it is a fun setting)

I have a setting where it will barely spin the tires, accelerate strong to 1,100 RPM then keep pulling decently to 2,500 and taper off to stop at 3,000.

I HAVE learned that I need to do the Curtis instructed procedure.  Then  that is where the real work starts. 

I then go back to step 2 (after the auto-run in) and do steps 2, 3 & 4 over and over as each one changes the "sweet spot" for the other two. 

Your method of applying the throttle pedal NEEDS to be the same EVERY time or the tests are worthless.
So, the only repeatable method is to just slam the pedal down.  Every time.

Today I will get in two sessions (with a pack top off in between). 

More later...Miz



Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 06, 2013, 05:30:56 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________
                           Today

At this point, I have ran the full Curtis procedure.  It is better than I started out, but still has lots of improvement left in it.  (I feel)

After giving it some thought, I think I am going to vary the Field weakening Base RPM as my next test.  The present setting is 770 RPM and was recommended by the controller as the first setting to try.  I feel it is too low and will work my way up the scale in small increments to see what the result will be.

After the F/W RPM has been modified, I will go back to the Slip-gain setting to see if there is any improvements there.

As each parameter is changed, it alters the other parameter's "sweet spot" and requires them to be re-optimised.

Eventually, given enough experimental data, there can be a chart to determine a starting value for these parameters, that will cut down on the time required to calibrate them.

More this afternoon.

Miz



Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 06, 2013, 10:58:52 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ______________

This has been a good morning for me.  Lots of progress on the motor/controller combination.

I have been playing the programmer like a piano.  I have had all sorts of things dialed in and have a pretty good idea of how each parameter effects motor/controller performance.

The best ones are the ones you never get to set if you buy a pre-packaged motor/controller as a set.

The field weakening and the slip gain.

Most of my progress performance wise is with the field weakening(naturally).  The new motor wants more current in the worst way.  During the lower RPM segment,  the motor kicks in, chirps the tires and hauls ass right up to the field weakening base speed. (as determined by the controller)  I later learned to ignore this speed and to determine my own as stated below.

I even tried to trick it by having the F/W start early and late.....Both caused the motor to be slower than with the controller recommended RPM.

Over the base speed (770 RPM for my motor), I needed to set up the F/W percentage from 20% (which I previously had) to 75%, getting gains all the way.  At 75% the gains stop and the motor just starts heating and making an audible "keening" noise..

The F/W has two variables.  F/W and F/W percentage.  My F/W is now 40% and the F/W Percentage is 75%. 

LATER EDIT:  Learned to set the F/W base speed well above the motor's top RPM so it has no effect.  THEN make a speed run watching the RPM's go up until it gets to a place where it starts to slow and reach a little, THIS is the real base speed.  Subtract 200 RPMs from that and set it into the controller as the F/W Base speed.

This size motor, with this winding (two turns per coil) needs a TON more F/W than the AC50.  (Anyone have an AC30 or 35?  What is your F/W  and percent?)

The car is on the charger ATM.  These are full throttle tests and take the edge off of the pack quickly and then it starts affecting the results.  (Keep pack topped up for accurate tests)

This afternoon I hope to do some more work with the slip gain.  It is now back as a priority.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 07, 2013, 09:35:24 AM
OOPS!

It seems I need a new contactor.  It finally went out after giving daily error messages for 3 months. (Contactor welded, contact points resistance too high....Etc)

It had suffered a previous mishap and I should have replaced it long before now......LOL

The new one should be here tomorrow.

Until then I am down for the count.

Miz

Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 09, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________
              Back in the saddle again

The contactor came in early and I got it installed.  The original
 contactor is good for 500 Amps continuous and 1,000 Amps
 momentary loads.  What it can not deal with is any sort of
current loads during opening and closing.  When it has any
load and it is closing, it tends to weld the contacts solid. On
an opening loaded condition, it arcs the points badly. (Even
 though it is in a vacuum)

There are several solutions to this.  One is built into the
Curtis controller as a "precharge" feature.  The second
is to provide a shunting resistor across the contactor
load posts (across the points). 

At rest, the car slowly drains the Large Capacitor bank
 inside the controller.  When the key switch is turned on,
 the current surge is when the caps are charging up. 
This is a problem with most all controllers.

The Curtis "Precharge" feature is a slight  .75-1 second
delay before commanding the contactor to close.  This
 is done by the controller as it handles the contactor directly. 

The precharge resistor allows current to "bleed" over
and into the caps before the key switch is turned on
and has no effect after the contactor is closed.  The
only caveat is that there is a constant pack drain
while parked, unless the main pack disconnect is opened.

My system was set up at a higher voltage than Curtis
 had recommended initially.  It provided a measure of
 extra zip and mileage, but it had several other side
effects.  The built in and not adjustable 1 second
precharge time was too short to fully charge the
caps at this voltage.  When the contactor was closing,
 there was considerable current flowing across the
contactor points and they welded closed. (Which set
 a contactor error in the controller.)

I had no extra at the time, So I "fixed it" by tapping it
 with a hammer until it broke apart and opened again.
  While it still worked after that, it still had point contact
 damage and threw Error messages about "points being
 oxidised"  or " too much point resistance" at times.

After installing the new contactor, I installed a bleed
 resistor which works by starting a precharge cycle
 after I close my main pack switch and adds about two
seconds to the one second internal delay.  According
to HPEV, this should do the job.  They were very helpful
 helping me with this issue and even recommended the
 correct value resistor to use.

This is unusual and not a "factory" fix.  Use at your own risk.

It seems to work fine for me.

You have the option of turning the precharge feature off
in the controller, but I did not hurt to just leave it on.

Miz 

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 09, 2013, 02:52:52 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
                     Further optimizing steps

Lessons learned:

1- The Curtis controller recommends the slip gain setting to use. 
I walked it up and down over and under that setting and always
seem to go back to it in the end.

2. The Curtis controller recommends the Field Weakening Base
Speed setting also. I have a new way to choose the correct F/W base speed.

My car with the new motor is much faster than the AC50 by a large margin in
 the 0- 2,500 RPM range.  After that the acceleration rate is
 almost the same, (but I am still working on it at this point).

My forward map Ki setting is critical in the initial launch of the car from a dead stop. 

I can not do more than 10-15 full power launches before recharging.  (Or it starts affecting my results.)

Later...Miz
 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 11, 2013, 05:29:33 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________
            Happy Monday morning to everyone!

Yesterday. I finally got through with the optimization tests.  The car takes off like a Bat-out-of-hell and accelerates smoothly up the RPM band and arrives at it's top RPM nicely with no jerking or jolts.  It behaves smoothly with any throttle input and is totally predictable.  It responds immediately without any delay on both accel and decell. 

Reverse was set up a little softer on the initial throttle application to give it a docile feel when parking in tight spots.

The part throttle cruise was decent also.  The programmer read out 75-85 amps while holding to 40 MPH.  If you recall, the AC50 was in the same region at 80-90 Amps in the same car, same road, same clear weather and same driver with the pack freshly topped off in both tests. (the variables were the same as humanly possible)

My zero - 60MPH time was at 9.8 seconds with the new motor while the AC50 was 12.1 seconds (using high gear only when accelerating).  The AC50 took 10.5 seconds when using low and high gears to do the same test.

There was no real weight change to speak of in the motor swap.  The weight of the AC50/powerglide unit was within 5 Lbs of the new motor weight.  Although the frictional drag in the powerglide was minimal, it might have added a second to the AC50's 0-60 time.  (Making the corrected time for the AC50 at 11.5 seconds if it were direct drive.)

Acceleration zero to 60MPH:
The  AC50=11.5 seconds
New motor=9.8 seconds

Cruise current: At 40 MPH:
The AC50=80-90 Amps   
New motor=75-85 Amps

Our original theory was that the AC50 left a little controller capacity on the table and our new motor would take advantage of that.  The end results seem to bear this out. 

But (there always seems to be a but), The new motor is falling a little short of the top RPM gestimate and my car would need a rear gear or rear tire change to suit me and get the overall performance I want. 

After "putting our heads together", we have decided to retest the motor on the static bench at the Tucson Motor shop.  Possibly revise the stator winding if deemed necessary before re-gearing the car.

So, off to Tucson I go.  I will post anything we find out today.

Miz
 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 11, 2013, 03:23:27 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________
                                             Yahoo!

I just got back from Tucson.  From all we can  determine, my motor needs rewound for a lower voltage range.  Everything we have done up to now has been based on several assumptions.....One is wrong and another is questionable.  When we get solid answers, we will share them.

That should do several things, Allow a lower field weakening rate, lower the resistance through the stator and Raise the top RPM.

Ivan has it and is rewinding it now.  I should have it back in a week or so.

I am getting good at removing and installing it...LOL

Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 14, 2013, 06:43:31 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

I am predicting a friday date for reinstallation of the new rewind.

It should take about an hour.  Both Ivan and myself will be able to quickly compare and determine what our latest modifications will do.  Guesses, theory and formulas are all well and good, but actual performance, testing and concrete results have the final say.

We have been criticized by others on many other forums for not being qualified, not scientific, not being highly educated and even being a disservice to other builders by misleading them with our conclusions.

To that I would like to say, most progress in history was done by people like us.  At least we are trying instead of spending our time telling others "It can't be done." 

We are not selling information.  We are sharing freely.  We post failures as well as improvements alike. 

There is a large lack of understanding and direct experience in AC vehicle motors because those who do know, do not share. 

I am not talking about those "Internet Theorists" who can prove through miles of equations or linking to the work of others to try and prove a point. I am speaking of real, verifiable, hands on experience building and testing AC motors for EV use.   

Please excuse the small rant.  I am at my saturation point with internet nay-sayers (and even knowledgeable persons) who only use that knowledge to belittle our efforts and not ever to contribute. 

We will have some news (good or not-so-good) sometime friday evening.

Miz
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on February 14, 2013, 10:08:03 PM
our fore fathers accomplished a LOT more than we have with far fewer tools and materials available.  we've got it made by comparison!  they had no computers, hardly any lab tools (except those they built themselves), difficult to source any sort of material, would take months to hear from the ONE or TWO colleagues around the world to collaborate with .. yet they changed the world. 

Never underestimate what one can do in his/her garage .. with limited knowledge and amateur tools. 

the only universal truth for discovery and wisdom is to realize that "mother nature has been most kind to you, she has given you everything - you just need to be clever enough to figure it out"   .. so ignore the nay sayers and lets go figure it out!

$0.02
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 16, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________

Ivan reports that he has the stator rewound and tied.  It has
just a little varnish on critical spots just to allow us to run it.

After some consultation, It will be wound for a much lower voltage,
 18 gauge, all in-hand, one turn on each pole for each phase.
(We have shortened the wire length to 30% of what it was while
 maintaining the same slot fill.)

If it responds like expected, it will come back out and have the
 full coating applied.  This will be the first one we have done with
 a total spray coating.  The other ones had a dipped and baked
traditional motor shop finish.    Our friend at the Tucson motor
shop thinks the newer synthetic sprays will probably be as good
or even better than the traditional dip they use. (and easier to apply)

By Sunday evening, I should have some results and hopefully
 good news too.

Miz
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: few2many on February 17, 2013, 06:03:29 PM
I definitely look forward to hearing how it goes! Are you worried about possibly overdoing the reduction in windings and voltage?
Will bringing down the wound-voltage extend the torque range further?
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: few2many on February 17, 2013, 08:46:41 PM


Please excuse the small rant.  I am at my saturation point with internet nay-sayers (and even knowledgeable persons) who only use that knowledge to belittle our efforts and not ever to contribute. 

We will have some news (good or not-so-good) sometime friday evening.

Miz

Rant understood. There are definitely a few, very arrogant, persons who are intelligently rude and condescending. They know what and how to say things to really insult, while staying within forum "guidelines".
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 18, 2013, 05:28:12 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
                  Good news on Sunday!

Ivan arrived early on Sunday morning and we fully assembled the motor.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/59FBE0A9-7AB0-47C1-B688-890A72FA433A-6247-0000134331048B5D_zpsf75f1440.jpg)
We are using only the spray on type of motor varnish this
 time to duplicate what a DIYer would have to do in their back
 yard.  Up to this point we were using the motor shop's varnish
 tank and oven to do the standard "bake on" finish.

Jim, the Tucson motor shop owner, said he thinks this would be
 just as good, but it is more costly for him to do that way. We
 wanted to test the new stuff if everyone will be using it for their
 builds.

The old winding was 12 - 18 gauge wires in hand with 2 turns around
 each pole.  The new wind has almost the same slot fill at 20 in hand
 but only one turn around each pole. (We used slightly heavier paper
 and had to drop a few wires.)  When doing the Delta connections
 and combining two of these 20 wire bundles, it makes three- 40
wire bundles.  Those are your motor leads.  They wind up about
equal to a #2 cable and can easily handle that 650 amp controller
maximum current. 

We performed the "Auto-run" portion of the optimization routine
again (This IS a new motor from the last one).  The F/W base
speed went from 770 RPM to 1050 RPM, the slip gain to 3.20
and the F/W went to zero for the starting setting to perform
the acceleration tests.  I reset the F/W percentage to the HPEV
setting of 20%  as my starting place also.

Right away, the motor reacted differently from the last time. 
The top RPMs went up from 3000 RPM's to 4000 RPM's.  (Which
was what we expected and was the whole point).  We traded
some bottom torque for an extended top RPM range.  I need
a 60 MPH car for my around town driving. I never drive
expressways, but I need good off-the-line jump (which the
AC50 lacked).

The AC50 in a direct drive application is good IF the car weighs
 no more than 2,000 LBS, the car is geared perfectly and the
driver is OK with a gentle initial take off.  But from 3000 RPM
up, it is a decent performer.

The new motor with the larger diameter stator, is capable of
much better off-the-line torque, but lacks the upper RPM the
AC50 had (Which I did not need for my purposes). 

It was my opinion that the AC50 left some controller capacity
on the table, so the new motor will be able to utilize all of it,
but it certainly would respond to a larger capacity controller
when one finally is available.

We drove around a little and played with the programmer,
but the serious optimizing needs done with just me in the
car and a fully charged pack, so it is the same as I previously
did. 

I will be busy today building a motor for an early Corvette
 and I will start my final optimization in earnest on Tuesday
 morning.

But, At this point, It looks like the journey is almost at an end.

Miz

Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 21, 2013, 01:13:58 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________
    Life interferes with living

I got to do a few runs Tuesday.  I need to frequently recharge the pack because every run I do is full throttle, all out,Tweaking the field weakening number in small increments.  I have to watch the SOC because it starts affecting the result and I must stop to top off the pack .

It stormed and rained Wednesday all day.

Thursday is really cold, but I expect to get in some time.

This portion requires patience and keeping good notes.  Each run makes the motor a little bit better. 

Miz
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 27, 2013, 08:16:38 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________
                               OK, Where to start...

Each day, I wait until the morning chill begins to disappear before I do any testing.  I have the pack plugged in over night and it starts out at the same SOC and temperature every test period.

I divide my day into two test sessions.

I test by driving one zero to 60 sprint, then pull over and stop.  I compare my time (and feel) to the previous tests.  I then determine my next parameter change.   I repeat, and repeat until I get that first sonic alarm from my BMS that the pack has dipped below the 2.8 volt point during full load.  (When stopped  and under no load the pack is still above 3.0 volts) This does not really take long at all as most of the time is spent above 300 amps.

I return gently to the shop and plug the car back in.

I compare what I had learned and decide where I will start for the PM test session. Which I do as soon as the pack is fully charged to duplicate the AM session as completely as I am able.

This "optimization" process seems to be divided into three distinct sections.

1-The Curtis "auto-run" portion.
2- Changing parameters until the bset overall performance is achieved.
3- Changing parameters to maintain that level of performance while reducing the current draw.

It is not an intuitive process as some of the parameters are not explained very well and actually leave the wrong impression. 

I am now at the last phase of the process where I am fine tuning the controller for reduced pack draw.

My performance goals have been achieved but the rest needs further work.

Miz
 
 
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: arlo1 on February 27, 2013, 09:14:58 AM
I just read this whole thread.  Its very exciting.  What frame size is that motor?  What RPM was it rated for origanly?
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 27, 2013, 07:34:07 PM
There was no tag on the motor when Ivan got it from the motor shop junk pile.  It was disassembled and it took him a couple of hours to find all the correct parts.

But one just like it was a 20HP  3,750RPM   Dont know the frame...Maybe Ivan remembers.....?

These things can be outwardly the same, but can vary a LOT when disassembled. 

This one has an 8" Dia. twisted rotor and a 7.5" long, 48 slot stator and has a standard length housing.(maybe inverter duty)

One just like it had a 7.25" dia. rotor with a 5" long, 36 slot stator, but still has a standard length housing.(had a C face for a pump)

At the end of today, I have it set up pretty well and it drives really nicely in traffic.  I am still tweaking to bring the current draw down while maintaining the smooth acceleration and the 4,200 RPM top speed. (in this car =65MPH) 

(Note to self: even with the pack turned off, this controller will bite you....)

Miz
Title: Our Test Mule
Post by: arlo1 on February 27, 2013, 11:35:07 PM
LOL yup I always discharge the caps in the controller before messing around.

Its interesting how this all works.  What would you say the max rpm you can safely spin your rotor?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on February 28, 2013, 12:35:24 AM
After all of the machine work, Ivan had it spun up at the motor shop and custom balanced.  It is really smooth at 4200RPM,( where it stops).

So, I would say it would be good for what ever RPM you could influence it to spin, but for me, 4200 seems to be it with this controller and I would be stupid to go to a 2 pole configuration and lose torque.

Of coarse with a higher voltage controller and different winding it would be capable of a lot more RPM's.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on February 28, 2013, 01:40:07 PM
LOL yup I always discharge the caps in the controller before messing around.

Its interesting how this all works.  What would you say the max rpm you can safely spin your rotor?

I don't think there is a max rpm, for motors this big the iron will hit sturation levels
and fall on its ass.  That is what we have been trying to do is get as much torque and
rpm as possible.. Thats the purpose of doing multiable winds.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on February 28, 2013, 11:59:48 PM
Have you read much about the Tesla model S?  They use a copper rotor but its mostly a secrate how they make it.  What I have read is it alows higher currents before the rotor saturates.   Im new to this so if I have it wrong let me know.  But the size of the Tesla motor is tiny and they have one model with 310kw!  It looks like it might have ~ a 4" rotor!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on March 01, 2013, 02:45:25 AM
Arlo:

Tesla has a direct drive car. That works only because it has a 14,000
 RPM motor.  That extreme RPM is possible due to the copper 4" rotor
 and an advertised 320 volt  system. (Voltage=RPM)

A copper poured rotor is a rare cat.  (It is incredibly expensive)  It, and
other things, help to extend the torque band.



We are dealing with aluminum poured rotors as they are the common
 item found on 99% of the world's electric motors AND a 20-50 volt system. 

Extracting any type of performance out of these is a trick.  It is available
 in narrow bands. 

You can have an RPM motor or a torque motor, but not both. (with the
 controller easily available to us)

We are trying to determine the way to build a compromise motor that
will do both.  It is not easy as most have found out.

The AC50 is an RPM motor with a soft bottom end.
The AC35 is a torque motor with a lower RPM range but good bottom
 torque. They are even trying to built a twin motor (the AC75) which
uses two small motors in an attempt to give both as well as developing
a slightly higher voltage controller, which is proving to be a bit of a bother.

If this were easy, these motors would be sold everywhere and cheaper too.

(Which is where we come in)

We have already found out how to build low RPM torque motors and high
RPM lower torque motors. Both work with a transmission nicely.  Gears
make up for a lot of conditions like car weight, terrain and traffic needs.

My direct drive car is the hardest thing to build a motor for.  The
requirements of good low RPM starting torque with a decent
 top RPM range and acceptable torque is a bit of a challenge when you also
 need low current draw at the same time.......

But we get closer every day.  The latest motor is almost perfect for my needs.
 The question is "is there one even better out there?" 

Miz





Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on March 01, 2013, 08:29:17 AM
Thanks Miz.   I am looking forward to all of this.  Just thought its best to gather as much info as I can before doing any winding and machine work.

One thing to note is Tesla did some work to find a way to cheaply mass produce their copper rotor.  I keep seeing pictures of the Tesla motor with only 2 wires on it.  Is it possible its a Single phase?? You can see it here at 1.07min in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OddRX9uO4o 

  AC propulsion makes them for their AC motors too but their process is expensive from what I read.  Has anyone asked for a rotor price from AC propulsion?
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 01, 2013, 09:41:23 AM
The Tesla motor and inverter share the same housing, making the actual motor leads internal, out of sight and very short. 

The two wires you are seeing are the pack leads (DC). 

The actual inverter to motor leads are a very high loss item.  You always want to make them as short as possible, down to the inch.  Tesla's solution was brilliant.  It also simplifies their water cooling system.


At first, I had a water cooled motor, transmission and controller.  In it's second incarnation, I slashed everything to the minimum.  No water cooling on the motor, no transmission at all and only the controller is water cooled....

EVERY Curtis controller needs to be water cooled.  Air works if you just soft-foot it around, but if you live where it goes above 99 F. ambient and your car weighs over 2,000 Lbs, you need water cooling.

This cold plate I have has never allowed the controller to go over 68C.  As a comparison, I shut off the water flow (there was water in the cold plate) and I had a controller shut down in 10 minutes while driving last summer.

Miz


 

Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 01, 2013, 08:09:43 PM
Quote
"is there one even better out there?

that's where WE come in ..  get enough people involved, each doing there own thing but basically following your instruction and you never know, might stumble on to something.

I have now in my basement 2 motors for experiment.  A 5HP, 600VLL, 1800Rpm.  The other is 5HP, 208VLL,900RPM.  They are very different sie, but both 5HP.  i know, too small for a car, but its just an experiment and i have another plan for them.  it will be interesting to try them out to compare.

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on March 02, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
what will be the new insulation class?  i.e. how hot can the temperature rise be?  i'm guessing it is limited by the stator winding insulatio quality?  or maybe the motor nameplate (for the rotor only) which ever is lower?

i'm hoping to wind the 8 pole motor for 6 phases .. so an experiment, which is why i hope it has a lot of slots.  correct me if i'm wrong, but there is no way to know how many slots are in the machine until after you open it?
Title: Motor basics.
Post by: mizlplix on March 02, 2013, 09:49:58 PM
The RPM rating of the motor is a good indication.

Number of poles                 RPM
        2                         3,600
        4                         1,800
        6                         1,200
        8                         900
        10                         720
        12                         600


The insulation we use is much higher than the factory stuff and so is the slot paper.  H class I believe.

125C (257 F.) operating temp and 180C (365F) before damage.
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 07, 2013, 10:40:24 PM
Arlo: That motor and controller is in the same housing.
 The actual motor leads are very short and internal.
 The two external wires you see are the pack leads.

Miz
Title: Report.
Post by: mizlplix on March 07, 2013, 11:21:32 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________
                     Progress report

I am getting in one and sometimes two driving sessions per day.
 My minimum performance goals are met and I am trying to bring
 the current-draw-under-cruise lower.

All of this requires a lot of time as one parameter change takes
 several other small ones to change to get an honest result.

Couple this with many/many dead ends and you will get the picture.


Briefly:

The AC50 with a powerglide, would accelerate moderately from a stop,
 briskly through mid range, slowly again above 6,000RPM and had an
8,000RPM top speed if I pushed it.  It did zero to 60 (using both gears)
in 10.5 seconds. It would do zero to 60 (in high gear only) in 12.3 seconds.
 It had a 85 Amp draw @ 45MPH cruise.(flat ground-full pack-just the driver)

(Using the 20 HP frame) The first motor wind was a ultra high low RPM torque
 monster, but it had a 3,100RPM top speed, while only drawing 75 Amps @
45MPH. I have no zero to 60MPH time as it had a top speed of 48MPH.(remember.
..direct drive)

The second motor wind was the opposite end of the scale(we over compensated).
 It had a better 4,100RPM (which I can live with) also a medium acceleration and
drives good in traffic.  It has a zero to 60MPH of around 9.2 seconds. But it still
 has a current draw of 110Amps @45 MPH......That is what I am working on. 
The field weakening parameters set how much current the controller allows
in the top RPM ranges.

Curtis has three F/W settings.

F/W base speed: This is exactly what it means. The RPM where the field is
saturated and needs weakened to keep the motor torque up. 

F/W: This is how much the field gets weakened in percentage.(total weakening)

F/W percentage: (Confusing, I know) This is the algorithm governing the curve
 the controller uses over the RPM range. One end of the setting is a fast initial
 gain with a slower later gain. The opposite end of the setting is slow initial with
fast gain later.

Once you over weaken the motor, you are at max performance ( for the F/W range, not total motor torque),
 then you start cutting it back while keeping that level of performance, but lowering the current
draw to do so.

NOTE:  This is the closest to explaining what is happening to this motor.
 I keep getting more torque as I weaken until I get it too far-(over weaken?)- and it
signifies this by making a loud whining noise and drawing extra current without any
 torque gains.)



We have been talking it over and may have a compromise wind to put it in the
middle.  I would like to get back some low end torque, lower the cruise
current to under 100AMps and keep at least a 55MPH top speed. (an in town car
driving 45MPH streets)

Later, Miz



Title: Conjecture.
Post by: arlo1 on March 08, 2013, 07:34:37 AM
Cant the controller control the current?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on March 08, 2013, 03:07:28 PM
Sure I can set the maximum current to 85 amps but you would
 accelerate slowly up to maybe 30MPH then hang there.

OR I can set the F/W algorithm to limit the top end current, but
it would accelerate like a slug and still draw 110 amps at cruise.


You WANT the motor to draw what it needs to do it's job.  While
 it works at top and mid RPM ranges this winding just draws too
much current for low cruise. (for this motor) Simple.

It does work on smaller motors though. 

Anyone can get one of these things wound and running, but you
 also need it to do your job.  A vehicle with a transmission will be
 easier to wind for. 

A direct drive car, like mine, is the hardest thing you will ever do,
 because you need to get good low end torque with acceptable current draw.

And good mid range (and top end) torque without over or under amping. 
THEN it needs an adequate RPM range to get you a decent top speed.



Miz



Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 08, 2013, 03:44:20 PM
hi miz, just wanted to comment on subject of field weakening. 

as you know, when the motor turns it creates its own back-emf which is terminal voltage heading back towards the inverter (even at the same time the inverter produces voltage and pushes current towards the motor).  as the speed goes up, the motor generated back-emf gets bigger and bigger until it reaches basically the same value as what the inverter is producing.  now, for current to "flow" from inverter to motor it can only do that if the inverter voltage is higher than the motor self generated .. but here we are at maximum base RPM .. and to go faster will cause motor back-emf to be higher than inverter and this is not possible!  so.. here we have "field weakening" .. feature of some controllers which please with the phase angle such that a portion of the applied current (inverter generated current) actually fights the motor's back-emf to reduce it.  like the motor is +100V and the inverter puts in phase with that -20V .. so suddenly the motor's generated back-emf voltage which was just at a maximum, say 100V, suddenly drops to only +80V .. and since the inverter is capable of maximum +100V.. hey, good news the inverter voltage is now higher than the motor's back-emf and hurray, the motor can now have room to spin faster!!  in fact, it will spin up faster until the new higher speed, which comes with a new higher motor back-emf, equals .. once again 100V .. but now it is at a higher RPM!  what is the trade-off?  well, as some of the inverter's output effort is going to fight the motor's back-emf.. well, that is less effort going to produce torque.  so... when the inverter starts to apply "field weakening" you see that you can get the motor to spin faster then its rated speed .. but .. it comes at a cost of reduced torque.

so you say that when your controller is in the field weakening region you are in peak capability, actually it is not true.  you are in peak speed perhaps, but you have reduced torque.  so actually, peak horse power is achieved at the moment just BEFORE field weakening is engaged.

i'd like to say this is my 2 cents .. but in canada, last month the government eliminated the penny .. so no longer proper to say "my $0.02"   :)
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: arlo1 on March 08, 2013, 06:54:27 PM
Hey Miz.
Let me start by saying I'm learning from you guys and I'm not trying to come across as a "know it all"
One thing I read somewhere is you don't want field weakening until after your normal cruise speed. (I think that's how I read it)

How about another question.  What if you wound for more rpm which should up the HP then gear down so you get your torque back?
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 08, 2013, 07:52:21 PM
Quote
so you say that when your controller is in the
field weakening region you are in peak capability,
I re-read my above post and my meaning was not clear so I added to it.
(trying to clarify)

As you increase weakening until you get all you
are going to get...meaning in that F/W range, not total motor torque.

Tuning this motor is in 3 RPM stages, lower RPM -up to the F/W base speed,
 then mid RPM torque then top RPM torque.

The lower torque seems to be in the way you wind the motor, the mid RPM
 torque seems to be in what percentage F/W you set (The algorithm), and the
top RPM torque is set by the F/W overall percentage.


Arlo:  The field weakening base speed is fixed by the way the motor is built.
  My first winding had a 770RPM speed and the latest had a 3,400RPM speed.
 So, the field weakening base speed can be anywhere depending on motor
construction.  I wish that I could have it above my cruise RPM, but in a
direct drive application, it is sometimes not possible.

6.14 gears is "geared down" for the Ford 8.8 axle, and I am not running
a transmission....So that is the need for a really strict torque curve to make my
car drive nicely.

As stated previously:
Quote
.A vehicle with a transmission will be easier to wind (a motor) for.

Miz
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 08, 2013, 09:48:50 PM
i'm not sure i really believe in winding up the motor for higher RPM as a means to increase the HP.  there are million & one equations, but at the end of the day the motor is only thermally capable of so much power and it was already designed by OEM for optimal.  if you re-wind for higher RPM, of course this is possible, don't you have to sacrifice something else (i'm not sure what) because HP must remain the same since the physical size of the motor never changes..i.e. the thermal capacity for power.  torque power is equal to speed times some other stuff, so as speed goes up that "other stuff" must go down to get the same torque (defined by physical size unchangeable).   

this is where the true value of motor cooling comes in .. here you are artificially increasing the thermal capacity and therefore the HP rating .. but as far as my imagination can wander, i think that is the only way.

thoughts?
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: Ivan on March 09, 2013, 05:32:22 AM
Way to much information, my .05 cents worth.

The controller is taking care of back emf, field weakening and such..

But the real limit is the magnetic saturation limit of the iron core. The iron in the motor has a limit to how high it can be magnetized. The limit is called magnetic saturation.

Mizs motor;
(one turn winding)  a weaker magnetic field results in a higher rotational speed.

(two turn winding)  a stronger magnetic field results in higher torque, less rpm.

In conclusion;
We are going to rewind his 48 slot stator and skip slots, hoping to pick up back iron (fooling the motor, so it thinks it has more back iron than it does)
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: few2many on March 09, 2013, 06:54:44 AM
Where will you be skipping slots, between phases, or poles?



Answer:  Poles...each pole will skip a slot.  we will use a smaller in hand count to lengthen the wire
               length, THEN skip a slot to shorten it a little , getting us an in-between winding.    Miz
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: Ivan on March 09, 2013, 07:04:49 AM
Where will you be skipping slots, between phases, or poles?

Ok, this is the layout for 1-pole, we got 12 slots for each pole, the current wind is 4 coils 1-turn slots 1-9  2-10  3-11  4-12 

I am going to try 3 coils, 2-turns, slots 1-8  3-10  5-12  make sense?
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 14, 2013, 06:03:29 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________


Our present winding produces 4,200 RPMs, has decent torque and
does zero to 60 MPH in about 9.2 seconds.

It also provides my car with a top speed of 65 MPH, which is OK for around town. 

But, it has a 115-125 amp draw at 45 MPH. which is a tad higher than I wish it to be.

We have figured out a new winding pattern and will be removing the
motor again in a few weeks for rewinding.  We hope to gain some low end torque,
reduce the pack draw to under 100 Amps and not lose too many top end RPM's
doing so. 

This motor has a 48 slot stator and the new winding involves skipping slots and
reducing the in-hand amount of wires.

I made another small discovery too.  I learned that a RechargeCar RPM sensor
 will run an Autometer Speedometer.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/DEB9387D-79F1-406C-A276-E901E1AB56F1-656-00000342CC6BA187.jpg)
(probably a factory speedo too)

This allows me to eliminate the extra sensor from the motor shaft end.

Stay tuned for more as things progress.

Miz
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 14, 2013, 06:59:42 PM
 i'm not sure to wait for you to figure out the proper winding pattern.. or to just wind and go.  my turkey boiler and i are getting anxious.

ps.  would you mind posting in your resource area where to get the spray insulation?  & slot papers & top sticks?  i'm going to make my order soon and get the stuff up here to canada.  if you're putting together a kit that's cool too :)
Title: our test mule.
Post by: mizlplix on March 15, 2013, 09:45:08 AM
What is the weight of your vehicle?

Are you using a transmission?

What type transmission?

Rear axle gear ratio?

Controller type to be used?

Then we might be able to tell if one of our previously tested winding patterns will work.

PLUS:  Ivan needs to respond on the supplies and where to get them.

The spray can be bought from Mcmaster/Carr or internet.

Miz
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 15, 2013, 07:07:19 PM
hi miz,  i'm pretty flexible.  this first motor rewind project is for learning purpose.  ------my motor is 5HP and will end up on my boat for quiet casual inland lake cruising/fishing.  i have no idea how to actually mount the motor to the outboard lower half yet, all i know is that the prop speed is 5500rpm so i'll probably need a 1:3 gear (belt pully?).  any suggestions here are welcome!

i picture rewinding this 5HP motor as if it were much bigger and as if it were for a car .. so that what i learn rewinding the 5HP is good  technique to apply to the next project which will be a car.  so rewound according to your instruction, but i'll just plop it on my boat and see how it goes (not to worried about perform*ance, i'm focusing here on gaining experience).

the controller voltage, current, features is wide open because i'll design my own controller.  so don't let this subject limit how the motor is wound.  that's why i was really interested to hear your thoughts on what you think would be the ideal controller in previous posts. 

anyway, let me know what you think.

looks like grainger offers two brands for spray insulation.  Sprayon item# S00601000   and Anti-Seive item # 17214.  both good options?

Title: Conjecture.
Post by: HighHopes on March 16, 2013, 07:25:20 AM
thx, i'll see if they ship to canada

for marine application, do you think it is worth spraying the rotor and stator (before winding) with epoxy?
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 16, 2013, 12:54:17 PM
You DO paint the ends of the shell and stator where the ends of the windings are though before the wire is installed. But, the rotor outside and the stator inside do not get painted and stay bare.  There is not enough of a gap for paint in there and they will drag.

BTW: that particular varnish is a little too low in temperature.  You really want the one from Mcmaster/Carr.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#electrical-insulating-varnish/=lwnfao

Red or green, they are 310 F. and 2,600 volts dielectric.  @  $5.49/can

The stator to rotor magnetic surfaces need to be bare metal.  They will not have corrosion trouble usually because they get hot in operation and stay dry.  I have seen these motors inside chillers with moisture hanging in the air and water dripping out of them.

Miz



Title: Conjecture.
Post by: Watts Up on March 20, 2013, 08:19:01 PM
High Hopes
Where in Canada do you live?
It is a very big place up here.
Title: Our test mule.
Post by: mizlplix on March 28, 2013, 05:54:17 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________
               The "New" Plan

The rotational clearance in an AC motor between the rotor and stator is very small and even
two coats of paint will probably make them drag.  Plus, I personally do not want anything interfering
with the magnetic forces reacting there, my vote is to keep them bare metal.


OK, My motor has a 48 slot stator.

The first wind pattern was 1/2 the total slot count of wires in hand and two round turns of wire to
fill the slot.  It increased the resistance thru the coils, lowered the current draw, shifted the torque
band down and lowered the top RPM of the motor to 3,100 RPM..

The second winding pattern was all the wires in hand and one turn to fill the slot. It lowered the
resistance, increased the current draw, shifted the torque band up higher and raised the top
RPM to 4,200.

The first pattern was perfect, except for the low top RPM, which limited the car to 50 MPH
(without a transmission, or rear gear change).  It would screech the tires on take off,
accelerate smoothly and draw 75-80 Amps at a 45 MPH cruise. I just needed 15 more MPH
and didn't want to pony up $200 for a new gear set.

The second pattern was good except for the high current draw in cruise mode.  It accelerated
at an acceptable rate, topped out at 65 MPH, but drew 115-120 Amps at a 45 MPH cruise
(which would lower my range by maybe 30% or more.)

What I need is a result in between those. 

The plan is to skip stator slots and then go back to the first winding pattern @ 1/2 in hand
and two turns.

It should give me a performance somewhere between the first two winding patterns.  It
should keep the top RPM to 4,000 or so, shift the torque band down some and lower
my cruise current to under 100 Amps @ 45 MPH (which should hopefully put my
range back near the 50-60 miles I had before).

We both are committed for the next two weeks, so it is maybe 3 weeks away.

Ivan felt he was not busy enough, so he decided to build a motor dyno to
assist in our efforts.  This way, we can get faster results and can skip several
steps we would normally need to install the motor in my car.(like just bringing
the wires out of the case and welding the wires in a bundle instead of cutting
to the correct length and welding on a ring terminal to attach them internally
to the posts).   Plus no final insulating spray.

It will save about $100 per test too in parts costs.

Miz


   
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: few2many on March 28, 2013, 06:46:19 AM
Have you considered 6 poles? It give you the extra resistance you need.
Title: Conjecture.
Post by: mizlplix on March 28, 2013, 04:19:15 PM
With 6 poles, my RPMs would drop to 1,200 rpm...........even though the torque would go up.

And with 2 poles, my torque would drop too low, but it would raise the RPMs some.

In my way of thinking, 4 pole is the way to go.  It has a happy medium.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on March 28, 2013, 09:42:43 PM
are you trying to do fractional turns? 


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on March 28, 2013, 11:58:46 PM
are you trying to do fractional turns?

There is no fraction,  you cant have half a turn...We are gone skip slots,
leave open slots hoping to pick up back iron.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 02, 2013, 08:00:19 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ ____
                   " Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of ....I forget...."

Well, it is finally time for the current motor to come out and get stripped down so I can haul
it to Tucson and the Shop of Ivan.

He is not only going to rewind the stator, but he gets to inspect it first to determine how well our
new Red Spray Varnish is holding up as compared to the traditional dip and bake kind.

I need to remove it from the car and strip it down to transport. 

I am doing one other operation.  I am drilling the right base mounting rail so I can insert a
 temperature probe to measure the motor frame.  The output will be read on my old Water
 temperature gauge in my Autometer white face gauge set.

It just sits there in the cluster and looks dumb.  This way it will serve a function.  The water
 gauge is effective between 160F and 245F (71C to 118C) which will work to indicate how
 hard the motor is having to work. The previous high temperature I have ever seen on the
 motor is 107C.  It mostly stays around 50C-65C.


I have also eliminated one VSS attached to the motor encoder shaft and instead split the
signal from the RPM sensor to run the speedo. (Direct drive does have perks)

I have been driving this version of the motor almost every day.  It drives smoothly,
keeps up with traffic just fine and the only real problem is that it draws a little too much
current at cruise than the first version. 

The third version is designed to keep most of the RPM and give back a little low
RPM torque while reducing the current draw some. 

More later.

Miz






Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 03, 2013, 09:54:56 AM
OK, I lied....I am going to Tucson tomorrow.

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/5F2EC08B-0BD5-4604-A415-AB9910DD923A-1846-000008EF84131901_zpsa1453639.jpg)
The car is naked once again....LOL


(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/06A2FA00-C9C7-40DC-A37D-DCA4FD82DDE3-1846-000008EF9010766E_zpsa2a89a93.jpg)
The motor is in my truck and ready for the trip.

Total time start to finish, turn on lights/open garage door to close door was 47 minutes with just me working alone.
This car is a dream to work on.

More tomorrow night after my trip.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on April 03, 2013, 04:52:57 PM
I dunno,  you may want to think speed bolts and quick disconnects.  at least multi pin connectors.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 03, 2013, 07:33:29 PM
I was thinking along the lines of a zipper.....LOL

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 04, 2013, 02:25:04 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ ______________
            I just got back home from Tucson.

It was a nice day to drive.  Sunshine and 80+ Degree weather.

I got to Ivan's place about 8:00AM and we unloaded the motor.
 We took it apart, made a list and paid a visit to the local motor rebuilder to get some supplies.

On return, we started rewinding the motor.  There is a pictorial in the AC motor 101 thread.
Here:  http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=8.msg465#msg465

Whilst at the motor shop, Ivan found a nice motor for his S-10. He and the owner are haggling price.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/90EB091D-A491-495C-85A3-D6FA39C0705D-2299-00000A08EBCE8875_zpsd867f81a.jpg)
(I wonder how many batteries it will take?)

Ivan threw me out of this shop saying "He works best alone, uninterrupted."  Well, I can not argue with that, so I went back to Phoenix.

The ball is now in Ivan's court.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on April 05, 2013, 07:43:59 PM
what the heck is an S10?  a tank?  !
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 05, 2013, 07:59:21 PM
what the heck is an S10?  a tank?  !

S10 is a chevy small pickup, mine is a sonoma GMC  same difference..
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 05, 2013, 11:14:26 PM
Well, he took out a 200 HP V-6 so he thought he needed a 200 HP electric motor...right?

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on April 06, 2013, 07:21:25 AM
UHHHH:  I don't think the ICE  EVER put out 200 hp,  even brand new.

BTW the tunnel isn't big enough to mount the pictured motor  even on our ZR2.

back to our regular discussion.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 06, 2013, 04:07:47 PM
Hey guys, just re-read the whole thread again. It's a fun read! I was wondering, in rewinding the motor, have you noticed or recorded the difference between length of wire, and voltage level? More coils= longer wire length=higher voltage needed/less amps drawn. Where as Less coils=less wire length= lower voltage/higher amps drawn.  Knowing this relationship (wire length vs voltage range) would help with rewinding any motor, size, or number of slots.
Also, You have made a lot of comparisons to the factory ac50. But you compare a factory set unit, programmed for durability and reliability, to a custom wound and programmed combination or power. Have you tried to do a motor optimization on the ac50? Is there more power available  in the ac50 by adjusting the settings or optimizing?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 06, 2013, 06:08:58 PM
In order:

Quote
I was wondering, in rewinding the motor, have you noticed or recorded the difference between length of wire, and voltage level?
Yes.

Quote
More coils= longer wire length=higher voltage needed/less amps drawn. Where as Less coils=less wire length= lower voltage/higher amps drawn.
Exactly right.  But more wire means less iron and that cuts top RPM.......too.
(unless you are designing a motor from scratch)

There is a special relationship between slot count, back iron, torque and
achievable RPM, also. (all inter related to a point)

Quote
Knowing this relationship (wire length vs voltage range) would help with rewinding any motor, size, or number of slots.
Yes, and that was the whole point of this web site.

Quote
. Have you tried to do a motor optimization on the ac50?
Yes, I have played around with an AC50 for days on end varying the parameters
and trying even silly things.  HPEVS did a fine job on them with only the pack
 and other variables left to set.  They are 98% there the way they are sold.

Any attempt to "hotrod" the AC50 beyond the HPEV recommended settings will
only result in extra heat, noise and shorter mileage. There may be only a small
benefit to be had and that is related to what vehicle it was placed in .   

 I hope to be able to post a sort of chart of the relative relationships between
the wire length, gauge, voltage and current draw between the different winds
 that we have tried. Also the effects of , say, winding the same motor with a
48 slot stator VS a 36 slot stator (we have a pair like this.) AND the 48  slot
stator rewound with 4 slots skipped to change the wire length and effects on
back iron. 

I will also try and build a database with all of the adjustable
parameters and their effects I have observed, as some of them do not
exactly react like the explanation in the Curtis controller manual. 
(Coupled with their famous line "and contact a Curtis Engineer before proceeding.")

We have a lot more to contribute.  It has just been a slow time while I
"wrung out" the last motor. 

Also, we encountered the need for a dyno, which Ivan has designed and
has 1/3rd built.  Up to a certain point, it was OK to just drive them in a car,
but now we have moved past even that and need repeatable/recordable
results faster than we were getting.

I realize we have some detractors who think we are not serving the DIY
crowd well because our results do not coincide with theirs or we do not
always use the correct "magic" words, but no one else was stepping up
 to the plate to lead an effort and I truly believe you can learn as much
 from failures as successes.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 07, 2013, 07:20:55 AM
You guys are doing great!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on April 07, 2013, 07:44:10 AM
given a choice;  I'd rather have honest repeatable results over fancy terms and photoshop.  You are doing the honest results.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 09, 2013, 04:30:39 PM
<Earth to Ivan.....Earth to Ivan....come in Ivan.....>

(Sigh)

He picked a bad time to get "Dyno fever". 

(My car needs a motor)

<Earth to Ivan.....Earth to Ivan.....come in Ivan....)

(Sigh)

OK..OK.. Your motor is done!  can I work on my dyno now.?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 10, 2013, 05:31:42 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________
                   Good news!

Ivan has the motor rewound and took it to the motor shop today.
Just to make sure it would start.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/20hp3rdtry_zps2b7e8225.jpg)

It kicked off and ran well @ 60Hz/30 volts, with a 35 Amp current draw.
(Which is back in line with the first motor that I really liked)

Remember, this motor is like the first except he skipped 4 slots and kept it two
turns per pole. This changed the wire length from 72' to 56' and hopefully
picked up some back iron and raised the top RPM limit too.

Now he needs to install the phase insulation, tie up the ends and spray
it with the red varnish.

The Delrin plastic we were using before was distorting under heat and
 almost allowed one phase to contact the case, so we upped the material
 from 200F to 500F and are making new insulators for the electrical
 terminal studs.

I am going to Tucson on Sunday to pick it up, installation is slated for monday.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 10, 2013, 06:16:39 PM
Here is further explanation on the new wind.

This is a 48 slot stator.  12 wires inhand 2 turns....3 coils per pole, the other wind where 4 coils per pole, this is where the skipping slots comes into play.

Ok I am talking just one pole, there is twelve slots per pole the poles are all ways in adjacent slots. 12-13  24-25 36-37 48-1

The first pole starts slot-1 ends slot-12,  the second pole starts slot 24 ends slot 13, third pole starts slot 25 ends slot 36, forth pole starts slot 48 ends slot 37,  want more, so the first phase-A starts slot-1 and finishes slot 37.

 Two more times around with a nine slot offset, and ya have a 3 phase motor.

First pole..lay out..skipping slots
Slot 1-8  3-10  5-12  so I started in slot 1 to slot 8 to slot 1 back up slot 8,  over to slot 3 slot 10 slot 3 slot 10 last turn for 1st pole slot 5 to slot 12, slot 5 to slot 12, that is the end for the first pole...

Is this stuff confusing or what.?  This all most gives me a headache.


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 11, 2013, 06:48:49 PM
Finished up Mizs motor this morning. (Maybe he will quit whining now.)

This is a big pic, click on pic for bigger image.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on April 13, 2013, 07:53:29 AM
i think you mentioned that your test car does not have a transmission/gears it is straight coupled and that's why it is doubly important to find the winding pattern that gives best overall performance. 

i was wondering, no transmission ... i like that idea because it is cheaper and easier for slight degrade of performance which i am oK with.   can all EVs be built this way, or is your setup somehow special?

by the way .. maybe another way to get peak torque at low speed your AC controller is to have a large front end DC/DC converter that sits between batteries & controller (rated for peak current, so the inductor is big but these things are cheap and easy to build yourself).  then, your DC/DC converter would have a variable output voltage so that your AC inverter's input DC voltage could be lower at low RPM and higher at high RPM.  the idea is to keep your PWM duty cycle in 50 - 70% range where it is optimal.  some thought is needed in the control algorithm to ensure stability but otherwise, you could improve your torque/speed performance in this way for about $300 in parts (was it cheaper to keep the transmission?).    i've never done this, it is just a theory that needs to be simulated for proof of concept.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 13, 2013, 09:32:58 PM
My Curtis controller does not really change much when changing input voltage, performance wise.
 
I have tried it on several cell counts, but it really makes little difference except how long
you can accelerate before the sag drops to 2.5 volts/cell and a small mileage benefit
when operated on a higher voltage.

If I had to guess, the "new and improved" higher voltage controllers will operate the same. 
They will let you run a larger cell count and by vertue of that have better mileage and a longer
acceleration time before the sag drops to 2.5 volts per cell.

But mine will allow 150 amps more during acceleration or climbing a hill.
(Just guessing, but I would put $100 on it still)

When contemplating a direct drive vehicle, several conditions must be met.
1-The tire size and gearing must be perfect for the estimasted top speed you will ever need. 
(75 MPH expressways need an 80 MPH gearing at the motor's top RPM)
2-The vehicle needs to be as light as possible to both have lower acceleration and cruise currents.
(I would NEVER direct drive anything over 2,500 Lbs. with a Curtis 1238R, for two reasons,
650 amp max current and 36 cell max pack.) 
3-The terrain needs to be as flat as possible.
(If you live in hilly terrain, use at least two or three gears in any weight of car)

EXAMPLE:  If I were to use the first motor winding I tried...... two turns per coil,
72 feet of wire per phase and 3000 RPM max, a 75 amp cruise draw at 45 MPH
(with tire chirping take offs with a 6.14 gear)...
I would put the powerglide back in, change the rear gear to 4.10 and the result would be, a
7.46 low gear, even more tire screeching and still a 70 MPH top speed in high gear.
An all-around awesome car, IMHO.

EXAMPLE: If I were to use the second motor winding which I tried........one turn per coil
with 46 feet of wire per phase, and a 4000 top RPM, but a softer take off......
I would just put the powerglide back with the 6.14 gears.
I would have an 11.00 low gear to help the lost torque and a 68 MPH top speed....
But it had a 115 amp current draw when crusing at 45 MPH, which would have
 impacted the mileage a little. 

The point here is that a transmission even with two gears will
adapt almost any motor to your car and suit most driving conditions
easily.

If you want to be happy with a direct drive car, you need to be really careful.
Or just "put up" with what you get.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 14, 2013, 01:50:02 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________
              The trip to Tucson went like clockwork.

I picked up the newly rewound motor and returned to my shop.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/6152D73C-E5A5-46B5-AE46-045CA40A5456-2666-00000906C4FA587E_zpsfea8cabf.jpg)
Ivan did a really nice job, the higher temperature insulators are really neat.  If you look
closely, you will see there are slots with less wire in them.  They are the skipped slots.
Some only have wire for two phases in them due to the new skip pattern.

The thermister wires now have more fiberglass insulation on them to prevent melting together...


Here is the rest of the stuff to reassemble the motor. 
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/5D6F0EE0-5627-481C-833B-8DAF7F2A4232-2666-00000906BAF96218_zps42618020.jpg)
If you look closely you will see the skewed rotor laminations.

Lastly is the new front cover, right.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/CA67E412-7888-4C12-BB08-BC7D290189DC-2666-00000906A84C719E_zps665b3534.jpg)
The old one on the left had too many holes in it because I have eliminated the VSS
(shown) and now run my tach from the same sensor used for the speedo.

When Ivan test ran it on the motor shop stand, it kicked off nicely
on 30 volts and had a 1 amp per volt draw. (Which was one of the goals)

Tomorrow I begin to reassemble,install and re-optomise.

Later, Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on April 14, 2013, 07:34:31 PM
i'm really excited to see how this works.  i don't understand how skipping slots = picking up more back iron.  not even sure what back iron is.. but that's OK, if your test works then i'll go learn some    :)

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 14, 2013, 08:03:35 PM
i'm really excited to see how this works.  i don't understand how skipping slots = picking up more back iron.  not even sure what back iron is.. but that's OK, if your test works then i'll go learn some    :)

Back iron,  from the bottom of the slot to the out side diameter of the stator is the back iron. Make sense.. The iron in a motor is designed to
handle only so much flux, with a ev motor running such high amps, more
than it was designed for the iron reaches a saturation level much quicker
witch creates heat. That is why most ev motors (seimans) are water cooled.

This is something I heard from baldor and Kevin, about skipping slots, when I asked them why, (to pick up back iron) they would not answer me..

This is why Miz and I started this forum to make this info available, and its been hard picking up little pieces of info here and there.  There is NOT a motor book in the world that will tell ya about a ev motor.

The funny thing is when I talked with motor men (motor shops) about the amps I needed to draw, they all said it Can't be done, no way it ain't gona happen.. So here we are, 10 winds latter. Getting closer all the time.

We have all ready figured out that our winds can handle the high currents, cause Miz abused the crap out of that last wind, high heat and very high amp draws continuously.  enough for know.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 15, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________
                       Short report...LOL

Today went well.  I assembled and installed the motor. 

With the car up on blocks (the ONLY way to perform a safe primary test on a direct drive car...)
I first jogged the motor with the switch in forward to see if I needed to swap the directional setting
 in the controller.  Luck was mine as it ran in the correct direction the first time.

Next I did an RPM check...It would zing right up to 4,900 RPM easily. (My first goal with this winding-
 I needed 3,500 RPM minimum.) If you remember, the first winding did 4,100 RPM and the second
 did 3,200 RPM.  Chi-Ching!

I decided to drive the car without performing the optimization routine because it seemed to run pretty good as-is.

LOL...It has a decent torque up to 2,800 RPM where it begins to slow down and search.  It then starts
to whine really loud at 3,000 RPM and needs the throttle cut way back and tenderly increased and eventually it gets up to 75 MPH.

The slip needs to be set and the F/W base speed set as well as the percentages to get the curve necessary for this motor.

One source for our motor information mentioned "Skipping slots" to get what we needed.  It evidently
changes the metal mass to flux ratio and changes the RPM potential of the motor.  But, I have been
told by others it does not work that way...Who knows?  It sure acts like it in this case.

I say that because when we had a 72' long wire length per phase, our RPM was at 3,100
When we had a 48' wire length per phase , our RPM was 4,100
Now we have a 56' wire length per phase and our RPM is 4,900

It is in the middle of the 3,100 and the 4,100 RPM motors but is 4,900RPM.....?
The difference is that we skipped 4 stator slots.  My only conclusion is that it had
the effect of increasing the back iron over the copper (Magnetic potential), increasing the RPM.
But I have been wrong before.

Remember this is an 8" rotor diameter....The size of a whole AC50 motor....

At first try, it seems to be a step in the right direction.  Tomorrow will tell more of the tale.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 16, 2013, 03:31:40 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________
               Second day

I started out early and with the pack fresh off the charger.

Apparently this motor does not like too much field weakening. 

I turned the F/W base speed up to 6,000RPM and the F/W to
 zero as well as the percentage to zero. All so there would be NO F/W at all.

I drove the car.  It came off the line OK and started pulling nicely up to
3,500RPM and started to slow down. 

I subtracted 200RPM and set the F/W base speed to 3,300RPM.
I then set the F/W to 5  and the F/W percentage to 10%.

The AC50 had a 3,000RPM speed, 80 and 10%...for a reference.

The Curtis controller auto run portion suggested a 770RPM F/W speed, which
did NOT work well and actually screwed up the torque curve.

When the motor runs up to 3,500RPM's smoothly , you do not
need any F/W below that.

This motor does not have a severe saturation problem like
the first winding did.  It required a lot of F/W...like 90 and 90%.

At this time I am able to accelerate nicely up to ,4000RPM smoothly
 and well ahead of the traffic pace, But The motor does run hot (158C)
(Due to early saturation or a slightly wrong F/W curve, perhaps)

My cruise at 45MPH is 90 AMps.

The motor will freewheel to 4,900RPM, so It is telling me I have
more to work on in the F/W and acceleration rates in the controller.

It is on the charger and I will have another go at it tomorrow.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 17, 2013, 03:03:11 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________                               
                                      "Third verse, same as the first"

I got out early and drove the car until I started to see the pack start to
drop below 114 volts and I put it on the charger.

I usually get in an afternoon driving session also.

All the time I keep working with the F/w parameters to optimise the top
 end torque and current draw to find a balance I can live with.

To this point, I am happy with the take off from zero-up to about 3,200RPM
 where it starts needing some F/W increase to keep accelerating smoothly.

This winding pattern solves my low end torque needs, my mid range needs and my cruise current draw requirements.

But, I am still dealing with top end torque and motor heating......as it runs hotter than the others ever did.

It is nothing to run 120C or more when I abuse it.  The over weakening of the motor and over throttling at top end cruise is causing the heat.

That should be brought down after I find the balance between the F/W base speed, F/W  number and the F/W percentage (Curve).

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 19, 2013, 07:17:31 PM
This may be a bit late, or out of place, but I'm wondering. You have been welding on the connectors, right? I've opened up and unwound small motors and know stripping magnet wire is different than insulated wire. How do you strip mag wire for the connections? Do you just peel it off, burn it off, or something?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 19, 2013, 08:27:17 PM
Ivan is going to cover this at some point.

He simply buys the ring terminals with an open front by the ring.
 He inserts the wire, crimps it , then silver braises the end of the
wires where it is already bare...


We are also working on an alternate design where the wire bundles
are braised to 1/0 welding cables and three of them exit the case,
kinda like the HPEVS motors, OR left long and go directly to the controller.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on April 20, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
i've used 120 grit sand paper to rub the enamel off the last 1" of the wire before soldering with others.  that was OK method when just a few wires and you're only doing it once or twice a year.  there's probably a better way?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on April 21, 2013, 07:41:11 AM
doing it commercially:  flux it and dip into a solder pot.  if the pot is above the breakdown temp of the paint,  it curls and falls off.  As long as you have solder adhesion more than 3 X diameter, contamination usually isn't an issue.  A little hard to do in a motor, but a flame source generally suffices as long as it is above 2500 F.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 21, 2013, 08:56:02 AM
All the motor shops I have been around, and I use is sil-fos 15%
silver the temp is about 1200 degrees F witch is hot enough to burn off the insulation on the mag wire.   Oh, and allways oxy acetylene. 

A motor shop will take the lead wire and rapp it with the mag wires,  that holds the hole mess together and then sil-fos it.

I guess I should add, one could solder the connections each mag wire needs to be cleaned, they make a tool like tweezers that you pull on the end of a mag wire to clean off the insulation.  Or heat with a propane torch and wipe or scrape of insulation. Both of those are time consuming..
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 21, 2013, 10:12:20 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________   

                              NOTE:

I drive the car every day.  One session in the AM and one session in the PM.
  Making sure it gets a charge cycle in between, as this type of driving is
VERY power intensive.

It is really easy to get this third winding pattern hot. After two
 pulls from 40C. the motor is well above 100C.  Usually in the 120C area.
 I have my controller set at 140C to limit power and 160C to cut power.

I have had to sit beside the road twice for a bit , for the temps to
drop so I could limp home...LOL

I am not being easy with any of these motors.  The idea is to get a
really good notion of what they will do over the long haul.

So far,  I have the controller set so I have a good initial
(out-of-the-hole) acceleration, a decent mid range and  a
decent cruise current. I am still working on the torque for
the last 500 RPMs (Which is wimpy).

Although the motor will free-wheel at 4,900 RPM, Under load
it pulls up to 3,800 RPMs currently.  That is where I am at.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 21, 2013, 10:35:03 AM
I use 15% often at work, for brazing copper tube. Even for cable lugs on my jeep and power inverter cables. Didn't know if mag wire needed something different.
Miz, is this winding pattern your preferred one? Have you figured out what's causing the heating? Finally, what's the main difference between few, and fw%?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 21, 2013, 03:37:07 PM
Quote
Miz, is this winding pattern your preferred one? Have you figured out what's causing the heating?

This is my own theory.  (There are those on other forums that do not agree with me.)

"The longer the length of the wire you use to wind one phase is, the less current it will use."
I say this because the first motor used 72" of wire and used 75 amps @ 40 mph. 
The second one had 46" and used 115amps @ 40mph.
the third (this one) uses 56" and uses 90amps @40mph.

The current follows the wire length.  But so does the rpm range.  it goes down with length.....

F/W = Field weakening
F/W percentage= The F/W curve.
F/W base speed=The place you want to start your F/W process,

All three are unique to each motor (Which can have different rotor diameters, stator slot
counts and lengths.) There are SO many different combinations that there is no easy
hard and fast rule. At some point, we intend to make a chart to illustrate the principles
we have learned.

No, I think Ivan has figured out a better winding for my motor.  Although I am still working with it,
It seems likely we will do a fourth try, which will have three turns per coil, but skip those 4 slots again.

This is all because My car is direct drive.  If I put the powerglide back in and put 3.50 gears in
the axle, I would have a rocket ship with the original 2 turn motor. 

Vehicles with transmissions are easier to wire for because of the gearing you can get. 

Miz


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on April 21, 2013, 03:41:49 PM
As a rule you can not beat copper fill as you have less copper fill by skipping slots you will get more heating.
Im not a motor engineer but this is a rule of thumb you always want as much copper fill as you can get.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 21, 2013, 04:10:24 PM
As a rule you can not beat copper fill as you have less copper fill by skipping slots you will get more heating.
Im not a motor engineer but this is a rule of thumb you always want as much copper fill as you can get.

I got another rule,  there is no rules for a ev motor.

Baldor must know something we don't cause they skipped slots on Kevins motor.  We did gain rpm by skipping slots, now we just need to lower our amps to increase our torque range.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 21, 2013, 06:15:32 PM
Quote
As a rule you can not beat copper fill

Then why can you buy the same motor with a 36, 48 and 52 slot stator?

We are working with a 1238R controller.  There IS a limit to the copper it can use....

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 24, 2013, 07:14:17 PM
Miz/Ivan, will you guys be posting more wiring diagrams for each of the winds you've tried, and where you skipped the slots?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 25, 2013, 01:34:40 AM
If Ivan does not, I will. 

I am just the "nut & Bolt" guy in this group, but from what I understand, you need enough copper
to build torque thru magnetic flux.  BUT it also causes the stator to saturate earlier cutting back
 torque and RPM, calling for field weakening to reduce the saturation so the motor can
 continue to make torque and thereby more RPM.

Low RPM/low saturation=lots of current delivered and effectively.

Mid RPM/higher saturation= current still delivered, but to a lesser effect.
(we need some field weakening to start). 

High RPM/saturation= high current delivered, but almost no effect.
(necessitating lots of field weakening for more effective use of the
current to boost the top end RPM/power.)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on April 25, 2013, 08:48:01 AM
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                       Short report...LOL

Today went well.  I assembled and installed the motor. 

With the car up on blocks (the ONLY way to perform a safe primary test on a direct drive car...)
I first jogged the motor with the switch in forward to see if I needed to swap the directional setting
 in the controller.  Luck was mine as it ran in the correct direction the first time.

Next I did an RPM check...It would zing right up to 4,900 RPM easily. (My first goal with this winding-
 I needed 3,500 RPM minimum.) If you remember, the first winding did 4,100 RPM and the second
 did 3,200 RPM.  Chi-Ching!

I decided to drive the car without performing the optimization routine because it seemed to run pretty good as-is.

LOL...It has a decent torque up to 2,800 RPM where it begins to slow down and search.  It then starts
to whine really loud at 3,000 RPM and needs the throttle cut way back and tenderly increased and eventually it gets up to 75 MPH.

The slip needs to be set and the F/W base speed set as well as the percentages to get the curve necessary for this motor.

One source for our motor information mentioned "Skipping slots" to get what we needed.  It evidently
changes the metal mass to flux ratio and changes the RPM potential of the motor.  But, I have been
told by others it does not work that way...Who knows?  It sure acts like it in this case.

I say that because when we had a 72' long wire length per phase, our RPM was at 3,100
When we had a 48' wire length per phase , our RPM was 4,100
Now we have a 56' wire length per phase and our RPM is 4,900

It is in the middle of the 3,100 and the 4,100 RPM motors but is 4,900RPM.....?
The difference is that we skipped 4 stator slots.  My only conclusion is that it had
the effect of increasing the back iron over the copper (Magnetic potential), increasing the RPM.
But I have been wrong before.

Remember this is an 8" rotor diameter....The size of a whole AC50 motor....

At first try, it seems to be a step in the right direction.  Tomorrow will tell more of the tale.

Miz
Do you think the change of in-hand count changed the resistance enough to account for the unexpected change?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 26, 2013, 04:44:21 PM
The changes were not unexpected, they were actually anticipated. 

The only thing that was unexpected was the extra RPM, but it is
not really usable because of the loss of torque. 



I can get 4,900rpm free running, but under even a light load,
the rpm stops at 3,800, (even optimized) .   So some of the iron
over copper gain was not effective.  Maybe that means that
there is a limit to slot skipping....

miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on April 26, 2013, 05:00:49 PM
do you know with your motor tests at what motor rpm your F/W kicked in?  correct me if i'm wrong, but theoretically it should not kick in until motor speed > 1800rpm.  what i'm trying to determine is if your new winding pattern's top speed is being limited by your inverter's DC link voltage (batteries + controller limitation) or if your motor's new B-emf is too high (i.e. you need a batter + controller rated for higher voltage with that winding pattern). 

 this is important because you want to know if it s the winding pattern that is the limitation - i.e. not a good choice for EV, or if it is the controller which is limiting - i.e. just need a new controller.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 27, 2013, 12:48:07 AM
Oh, we definitely know it is the controller that is the limiting factor. It being the best choice here in the USA is the reason we are using it in our tests...to see just how big of a motor we can easily use and still get adequate performance.

The F/W point is varied in each instance we have changed the amount of wire in the stator.  The controller has a feature in it that recommends to you what F/W base speed to set. In the first case, it recommended 770RPM.......But it ran best at 1,400 RPM.

The second and third windings used 3,000 and 2,400 RPMs respectively.

The first and third windings used very little F/W , but the second one used 100% and  a fast curve, like it needed more.

This whole F/W feature in the controller also lets you set the top percentage and how fast to let it ramp up. (The curve)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 27, 2013, 07:28:13 AM
Are we forgetting how well Kevins truck runs with the Curtis 1238-7601, This motor is 30HP 500lbs, http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=16.msg31#msg31 this truck is amazing.

In a nut shell:
I want to get as much out of Mizs motor (direct drive) as possible. Torque and RPM, we know how to get RPM, we know how to get Torque, So the question is, can we get the two together. Hopefully these questions will be answered on the next wind.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on April 27, 2013, 09:23:24 AM
......................And Kevin's truck has four times the battery pack too.........................

Would his truck spin the tires taking off?  No

Was his truck direct drive?   No

What I am saying is that I am looking for a performance level a step above Kevin's
 truck.  As Ivan said, we are looking for torque-RPM-low current draw all at once...........

AND we are working with a low RMS voltage controller, which limits our ability to
use the higher voltage ranges to help bandaid our small problems. 

At this point: I just went down to Home Depot for a case of liquid nails.  It would
have cost me twice the cost of what I was going for to take my F150 pick up
those 7 miles over and back.  As it was, I took my grandson with me to carry the case,
(I'm lazy),  and we had a nice easy, quiet, cheap drive  over and back.  The car performs
wonderfully and seems to give decent mileage too.  BUT....

As a part time Hotrod, it needs a little more torque (like all Hotrods).....<evil grin>

Yes, I could call it good enough.  It beats the AC50 easily when in the direct drive mode,
gets almost as good mileage and looks as impressive as hell in the car, but my heart
wants to chirp the tires every once in a while....

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on April 28, 2013, 04:04:02 PM
This was the last wind.

This is a 48 slot stator.  12 wires inhand 2 turns....3 coils per pole, the other wind where 4 coils per pole, this is where the skipping slots comes into play.

The new wind.
This is a 48 slot stator.  8 wires inhand 3 turns....3 coils per pole, and will skip slots just like the last one.


Ok I am talking just one pole, there is twelve slots per pole the poles are all ways in adjacent slots. 12-13  24-25 36-37 48-1

The first pole starts slot-1 ends slot-12,  the second pole starts slot 24 ends slot 13, third pole starts slot 25 ends slot 36, forth pole starts slot 48 ends slot 37,  want more, so the first phase-A starts slot-1 and finishes slot 37.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 02, 2013, 10:29:11 PM
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________
With 8 strands of 18Ga. wire, I can do about 85-90 amps. continuously. 
(according to a rough wire ampacity calc.)  I am sure they will
be rather warm at this temperature, but we have the good 200C (+)
insulation and spray varnish and I am introducing forced air cooling
to the fourth generation motor. 

The controller is set to de-rate to 1,000 RPMs at 140C (motor) and shut
 down at 160C.  I have had two controller shut downs due to motor
heat with this third wind. It is easy to get it over 100C.  In a normal
driving exercise, to the store and back about 12 miles, I pull into
home with the motor in the 120C range. That is babying it and NO
hard accelerations.

It is interesting to note, When the two shut downs happened and
the motor tepmeratures went over 160C, the controller was only
 at 70C. Ivan's "Bath tub" style cool plate seems to work fine
dispelling concerns of any "dead" spots in the coolant flow.

Under acceleration, my pack can sustain 240 Amps continuously
and keep the pack over 2.5 volts/cell.

I can only sustain up to 600+ amps for mere seconds.
(without sagging the pack to under 2.5 Volts/cell)

I estimate the new motor will be in the 80-90 amp draw region when cruising.
The voltage range will be around 70 Volts  and the current draw will be
reduced over the entire operating range over the last motor.

The torque overall should be increased somewhat and the top motor
RPM should hopefully be at least 4,000, which will give me a top speed of
62 mph.

I drive mostly all 45 MPH roads. I do 50 MPH to stay up with traffic.
Add a couple of MPH for minor passing and I think we are in the ball park.

The present motor has a 3,800 RPM top speed and It moves around
in traffic satisfactorily.
   
With the voltage range increased to 70, The motor heating should
come down and the forced air induction should bring it down
considerably also.

When limited to this Curtis controller, a Direct drive car is a challenge.
My car is 1,900 Lbs.  I would consider  that the top limit and recommend
 a transmission  for any vehicles over that.  Some day, if I can get my
hands on a controller capable of more RMS voltage,  My car would benefit
greatly, but cost and availability are a big problem ATM. 

Given Curtis' way of building controllers, I suspect that even the "New"
higher voltage controller will only mean a higher DC voltage and the
RMS voltage will remain the same.  In this case, the higher DC
voltage will only translate to better mileage.
 (maybe a lower pack sag too, but I am a little fuzzy on that)

My current controller is rated at 650 Amps  and the new higher
voltage controller will be only 500 Amps max, this will mean a slower
 acceleration in the top motor RPM,s.

So, the new Curtis controller will not be the "answer" either.

   
Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on May 02, 2013, 11:13:48 PM
Split the winds?  Dual controllers?   Controller selection is why im doing what im doing....
To me a 100kw controller is BIG.... So if you need more that's not cheep....  I imagine of making something with 500+ hp available for my 69 Road Runner but that's going to be ridicules.   
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 03, 2013, 01:08:44 AM
Another thought for a long winter night:

A Soliton would be: 1000 Amp X 144 volts  = 144 Kw
A big Zilla = 2000 X 144 = 288 Kw 
A Shiva = 3,000 a X 144 v = 432 Kw (Now we are getting big)

Another way to look at it is when figuring a DC controller, you
 are figuring out the max current the controller will deliver, (Am I correct?)

How do you figure an AC controller, the same way?
Then 70 Volts (controller max output) X 650 Amps = 45.5 Kw
(The max for a Curtis 1238R)

45.5 Kw...........?

Pretty wimpy if you ask me.

EDIT: Ivan
96volt times 650amp 62 Kw

Dual controllers:  Dual anything is expensive. 
(Dual motors means dual controllers and requires dual packs)

Split the winds: Please explain that one a bit more?  It sounds intriguing.   

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on May 03, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
from a DIY controller perspective:

for EV application the machines tend to be low inductance and require high performance.  so you are forced to switch the mosfet/igbt at a fairly high frequency, say 10kHz to 20kHz somewhere in that range (some argue higher, but i don't).  it is very difficult to find a module that is rated for the level power you want AND is capable of switching high frequency while maintaining a power dissipation that could actually be cooled. 

so no doubt you will need liquid cooling. 

at that power level it is hard to find the module in low voltage.. probably you'll need to go higher voltage since that's where the modules are being made, 600V rated 6-pack from Infineon.  can you form battery packs that are 288V rated?  i don't know, sounds like a lot to ask, but it will get you 100kW drive continuous.  how much does that module cost?  my guess is it is somewhere around $1K.   how many will you blow up during development?

to me, that wish list i think actually is possible but i would not start there.  i would be more interested in starting at 30kW level and prove the hardware. then you'll have to raise some funds to "try" and build the motor drive you really want which is even higher power. 

it can be done, but you have to take one step at a time. 

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on May 03, 2013, 09:10:08 PM
man.. the world impresses me with how fast it moves now.

here is the kit you want, the inverter, controls, DC link cap, cooling plate, all designed for EV use.

just under $5K   <-- good price!

buy it here:  http://ehitex.com/application-kits/infineon/287/hybridkit2 (http://ehitex.com/application-kits/infineon/287/hybridkit2)

now all you need to do is figure out how to get the batteries at that voltage and how to get a cost effective motor.  done  :)
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on May 03, 2013, 10:33:36 PM
Sorry splitting winding might not be possible with an induction motor... IM not sure.  we can do it with Permanent magnet ac motors but that's because we are not trying to work with a feed back from the induced magnetism in the rotor.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 03, 2013, 11:29:49 PM
Arlo:  There are some really strange things that can be done with AC
induction motor windings, so do not be bashful about mentioning them. 

We really do not know if it applies unless you mention it, we toss the
idea around and if it sounds likely, try it.

I would really like to build a large BLDC motor to try.  Something
about 12" in diameter and maybe 4 sections long. (That would
really be 4 motors side by side.)

With the magnets on the inside of the rotating shell, it would
not have a high RPM problem with the magnets detaching.

I went on a drive this afternoon to the local indoor target
range with a neighbor.  When we got there, suddenly
everyone wanted to be our friend...LOL

Hotrods are an integral part of the American culture
and an electric early Ford hotrod is the rarest of the rare.

In a world where hotrodders are switching to late,
computer controlled engines, We are totally in the
space age with an electric powered car.

The AC50 was unique when viewed by people. 
This big aluminum, finned monstrosity is just
plain awesome.  It looks right at home in a hotrod.

I have come to the conclusion that my pack of
36- 130 AH cells is just about a perfect match for
this Curtis controller.  180 AH cells would be  perfect.

A 15 HP AC motor core would be about right for my
1,900 Lb. car when used direct drive.  A 20 HP core
would be my choice if a transmission were used and
the car weighed over 2,000 Lbs.

Just a wild assed guess, but I think I will finally find that a
7.5 or even a 10 HP core motor is too small for the controller.
While anything over 20 HP is too large........for the controller
to easily handle.

Yah, I know Kevin at Topeka Electric has a 30 HP core motor
in his truck, but I am talking about a direct driven car.  He
uses a 4L60 transmission with an opti-shift controller and a
HUGE traction pack.

Later, Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on May 04, 2013, 07:49:55 AM
You seen the brushless out runner I am working on right?  So I think the best for DIY is to take an induction motor 10hp or bigger and pull the rotor and make a new rotor with magnets fastened for the highest rpm you can.  There is a few ways to do this one is to get magnets with counter sink holes and glue/screw them to the rotor.
Another is I think the volt uses this they make rotor laminations the magnets slide into then you glue them but the advantage is the magnet has a thin amount of lamination between it and the outer diameter giving it very hi rpm ability's because its held in strongly and because the rotor is made with lams which help reduce eddy currents.

But If you took a frame like my 10hp induction motor and made it into a bldc I bet 100-200hp continuous and ~500hp spike would be possible.  I would have to work the math but Its insane what a bldc can do...
Now here is the kicker.  Permanent magnet motors have lower inductance then induction motors and the electrical rpm is higher so you have to be careful because all the sudden you can not find controllers that are affordable.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on May 04, 2013, 09:26:14 AM
Or, use the Highlander Hybrid rear motor/differential assembly. It is permanent magnet, and you can rewind it. Also, it should be star, so you can half the voltage switching to Delta, though the amps may get high for the small windings. It is pmac, what us the difference to bldc? It is light weight, motor, gear, differential.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 04, 2013, 10:35:45 AM
I am starting a new thread about the theory of converting an induction motor to BLDC so as to not hijack this car thread further.

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=82.new#new (http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=82.new#new)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 09, 2013, 01:45:40 PM
Well, I ran a few errands today.  The car drives nicely in traffic, but even though it was a coolish day and I drove really easy, the motor ran at 107C. 

My estimated total mileage today was 38.

I did 32 miles on tuesday.

I have a really good test next Wednesday, a business trip of about 44 miles.

I have yet to install my replacement ZEVA sensor, so I am guessing at my SOC at days end. I really need to do that and finish the parking brake too.

Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on May 09, 2013, 04:02:35 PM
breaks?  u use those?  ;P

so where does one get a vintage frame car like yours?  for EV use,  the requirements are light weight, strong frame, no rust.  all OK to get over the phone to any scrap yard.  but .. the last requirement "cool looking" is much harder to find.  ?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 09, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
watch Craigslist.  I see model T and model A frames all the time.  I got mine from Arizona Model A,  in Gilbert. With front axle.  It needed sand blasted and 2 cracks repaired, but it was straight.

The best is to check the state where you live about the hassle of getting an original title.... Best to buy a not running car that is titled and convert it to an EV.

My frame got boxed, the front horns bobbed, the rear spring hump cut out and capped flat.  (And a ton of other stuff)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 13, 2013, 07:03:58 AM
If I were to build a car today for EV use, I have some good pointers:

1- Start with a Ford Model T frame.  It is light weight strong, simple and
     extra crossmember or boxing is NOT needed. 

2-  Use a Model A front axle and suspension.  1950's era F100 front hydraulic brakes.

3- Use a Ford Model A rear axle and wishbone links, but set it up for a coil over suspension with a panhardt rod.
    The early rear diff is strong enough, it has less friction than the later hypoid ones and it is light weight.
     Use the 1950 ish F100 rear hydraulic brakes on the rear too.

4- Use plywood for the flooring and in as many places as you can.  The upper body is totally your choice.

5- Use an aluminum radiator like I did, as you will need liquid cooling for at least the controller.
    AND the radiator holds up the grille shell and front of the body anyways.

6- Use a Vega steering box mounted up front to the left rail and a cross steer link to the right wheel.
    It is THE best steering for these cars.

7- Replace the rear crossmember with something flat as you will not be using the humped rear spring.

8- Do a suicide front spring perch like I did to get the car down lower in front.
    Do NOT lower this type of car too much as it looks stupid....

9- Use the under floor areas for your battery boxes as I did.  No one sees them...lol

10-It is traditional on these old cars to use tall/skinny tires and wheels.  That is good for an EV too as it has a
     low rolling resistance. 

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 13, 2013, 07:16:43 AM
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________
I have been driving the car almost every day.  It is docile in traffic
 and a joy to drive, direct drive.

It keeps up with traffic easily and gets decent mileage, but I have
not pushed over 38 miles/per charge as of yet. 

I need to get busy and finish the parking brake because it is a pain
 to jump out and chock the front tire with the steering wheel.  I
always get odd looks from everyone....lol

The trunk at the rear is a lifesaver and something I can not do
without. 

My only real concern is the motor.  Even if I drive easily, it still
gets over 100C, always. I am also reluctant to push it over 40
miles because I am unsure of the ultimate mileage.  I know it
is suffering due to the motor heat...

The best mileage I ever got was 53 miles (with the AC50 and powerglide).

The car is a little tail happy (loose) on corner entry due to (I feel)
the rearward bias of the pack weight. But, as most race drivers will tell you,
It is better to have a loose car, it will point where ever you want it to.


Miz


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 20, 2013, 08:38:48 AM
I have about 750 miles on the car.  I use it every day to
 run all of my errands and just joy riding sometimes.

We have set up wednesday for me to take my stator
to Ivan's shop in Tucson. He has a fourth build all lined
out for it.

I found him some 6 volt Golf Cart batteries to power
his shop dyno, and will be taking half of them down
on the same trip. 

If everything goes well, I might be reinstalling the
motor within a week.  I am really excited about this version. 
It utilizes everything we have learned so far. 

I know Ivan is getting tired of all of the labor, but this
knowledge is not just laying around and easy to learn.
Even the motor shops we have spoken with are in the dark when
it comes to the lower voltage/higher current systems.
Most all admit that they do not know or claim it is impossible.

I think it is just an application they never had to deal with,
so never learned or even had reference books for.

Ivan's new dyno will be a step up for us.  Driving a
 motor in a car is OK, but it only relates to that one
car and any extrapolation to another car is just a good
guess without solid repeatable tests.

So, we will be in a position to publish a certain winding
 and the dyno results together.  After studying a few of
these, you will get a much better idea of how to wind
your motor for your car (and for less than half price of a factory unit).

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on May 20, 2013, 04:19:58 PM
when you get to that point in your research, in addition to the optimal performance winding, would you also publish your recommendation for high torque low RPM and low torque high RPM versions?   the high torque low RPM is kinda fun for doon-buggy application and low torque high RPM can be interesting where squeeling the tires is not necessary but reaching rural country road speeds is. 

thx for all your hard work  :)

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 22, 2013, 11:38:35 PM
Yah, the plan is to publish the results of the different winding schemes
and their dyno data, so everyone can see and determine what would
 be best for their application.
__________________________________________________________________

Well.....I finally loaded up and moved the whole circus to Ivan's Garage
in Tucson Yesterday. As well as my stator, I also took him half the
batteries and the charger for his dyno power pack.

I stayed just long enough to get the old wiring pulled out and a little
clean up done.

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/F0A9F046-E8A4-4E57-A68C-F2D76F5B29C2-5789-00001080D0015E77_zps2689ab63.jpg)
Cutting off the head end wiring the easy way.


(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/66DB9D32-CD83-4E36-99F9-6D143580A622-5789-00001080F9152C9D_zps971dd48c.jpg)
We added a new 2" O.D. vent hole for forced air cooling.  If you look
closely, you can see the new Therm resistor hole at the other end
cover plate.


(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/1D5AEE71-D8FC-4073-BE32-9F2B439C3EAF-5789-00001080EB56E481_zps829c0f9d.jpg)
Ivan cleaning off the burr caused by cutting the hole.


(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/109A5C0B-FDEB-44E5-B8D8-FA2774020B44-5789-00001080DE8CB93E_zps757649f5.jpg)
The mill does a quick clean job of it.

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/2C19BEDE-DED5-4B81-9DA3-1B008486DFFA-5789-0000108122668119_zpsee148073.jpg)
The new Picacho Peak EV charging stations. I could drive
from Phoenix to Tucson if I had too. (But who would want
to wait 8 hours out here in nowhere?)


So now, once again, the ball is in Ivan's court.  His urge
to wind a new stator for my motor gets to fight with his
need to finish the shop dyno.....

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on May 23, 2013, 04:40:30 AM
Great work guys! With forced air in, won't you need an outlet?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on May 23, 2013, 05:06:14 AM
gotta side with Ivan in this one.  I would have liked to see dyno data before the tear down.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 23, 2013, 05:23:02 AM
(Not if you force it in hard enough...)     = )

Already taken care of.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/E2FC8F74-335F-429D-9ECB-F7BE862F6A37-3729-00000AD8D98EB828.jpg)
Way back when this first started, we prepared for a forced air strategy by making the exit holes
 in the drive end.

But, it never has been a problem until this last rewind (The third, two turns around each pole coil and skipping slots)
When it started running over 100C and To be safe and allow for the 112 F  Arizona summer coming up.

Me too Pete, but Ivan only has a certain operating window to get it done and the dyno is not done yet.

We were talking about doing a dyno test of a known motor first to better be able to rate the dyno.
(Like an AC50)  Then it is 45 minutes job to remove the motor in my car to test the fourth winding.

Ivan has been wondering about changing the spacing of the winding overlap.  It might have a
really good effect on the torque.  So far he has left that alone, so that is a fresh area to try.

Who really knows how many times my motor gets rebuilt?

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on May 23, 2013, 06:44:49 AM
Ivan has been wondering about changing the spacing of the winding overlap.  It might have a
really good effect on the torque.  So far he has left that alone, so that is a fresh area to try.

What Miz is talking about here (spacing) is the phases spacing, normally 60 degrees and 120 degrees, change to 30 degrees and 60 degrees.

I will be trying this on my water cooled motor (10 hp) dying to try this one on the dyno, phase spacing. If I ever get done playing with Mizs motor.

Ok time to go hit the garage.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 23, 2013, 05:18:49 PM
My last progress report was not too good.  Only two phases done
 and already out of  Mike's Hard lemonade. 

I think an aerial drop resupply is called for.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/F85C454C-220C-4C3A-A5C0-40E7B5AC3B49-6153-0000111B77FBB58A_zps22edec15.jpg)

Progress so far...

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 25, 2013, 09:54:52 PM
I am using this down time to finish my left hand parking brake assembly. 
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/064ED333-7F1C-4BBB-9C58-29C00A9391AC-987-00000257565FC528.jpg)
It is built to simulate an old dirt tracker left hand turn brake.

Up to this point, I have been jumping out of the car and placing the
steering wheel under the left front tire to keep it from running away
 down hill.  The removable steering wheel gets some looks, but
when they see it under the tire, it really causes some head scratching....

It will be nice to be able to get out of the car with some dignity.

Miz


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 26, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Lots of progress!  Winding phase is complete and it is ready
to pair up the start/finish leads and crimp/sil-flos the lugs on.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/7D5A27F3-E75A-490D-8290-ACDA6E753C49-6811-0000135525B19484_zpsf716123b.jpg)
Then it is a matter of installing the thru studs, inserting the
phase insulating papers and tying them with string before
 spraying everything with the Red polyurethane high temperature
varnish.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on May 26, 2013, 02:59:21 PM
The motor is rewound 3-turns  8-inhand (first pole) slots 1-8  3-10  5-12.
Remember this is the skip slot windings.

Will clean out the stator, in the morning.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 29, 2013, 05:02:26 AM
WOOHOO! 

I did the "Tucson Turn-around" once more and picked up the fourth generation motor from Ivan.

It is installed back in the car. 

It will do a free-running RPM of 6,001  which is HUGE for an 8" rotor.
(A higher RPM was one of our goals), But remember, the last one did 4,900 RPMs too, but
 it was not all usable due to lack of extreme top end torque.  Time will tell.

Today, I begin to drive and set the F/W parameters.

Also, My initial impression is that it did, in fact pick up a tad of bottom end torque
because of the tire chirping noise it makes...LOL

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on May 29, 2013, 05:01:41 PM
so:  Ivan isn't done with the dyno,  so nothing more than seat of pants data collection?
RATafrassenmutterratafrassen!! (disgusted sounds made by Muttley the dog)
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 29, 2013, 05:37:11 PM
One caveat for running them in the car....

Ivan has not tried to optimize one  on a Dyno yet...
<Evil laugh>

I wish I had a camera on him for the first one...LOL

Seriously, My hand held unit has an accelerometer in it.
 It reads out in  one digit before and three digits after the decimal point.
(G-forces)

I do seat of the pants "feel" to get the Major increments,
Then I use time to 60 MPH -(3 runs are recorded in the hand held)
Lastly I use the accelerometer to finish tweak the settings.

 It is not really as seat of the pants as everyone thinks.

But if you want some real HP/Torque figures, The Dyno is the ticket.
Especially since he went all out and bought a regular load cell for it.

I am taking down my "Old" motor plus the one out of my car when
he is ready to do the first Dyno run. We will have the parameters for
both before running them. The REAL test of mental stability will be the
third motor he does.  He will be starting from scratch.

Curtis had a standing offer to test run any motor/controller sent to them. 
I would like to do that sometime and see what parameters they come up with.
Especially if it only cost 2 way shipping.....

Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on May 31, 2013, 10:49:34 PM
Today, we learned that 8 in hand is not sufficient to carry the current a 1238R controller can provide.
It went from this:
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/F85C454C-220C-4C3A-A5C0-40E7B5AC3B49-6153-0000111B77FBB58A_zps22edec15.jpg)

To this:
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/0773C0C3-17A9-4198-A48E-D47C1A3F0B08-443-000000723CFF6512_zps6205d7a2.jpg)
In 30 seconds.

Back to the shop for yet another build, this time using our proven 12 in hand
But changing the phase spacing from 60 and 120 To 30 and 60 degrees.

LATER EDIT: After pulling the old copper out of the stator, it seems that the
 outer return loops are getting hot and conducting heat down through the
stator from both ends.  The encoder end is getting hotter than the drive end loops.
The point of failure was an 8 wire group on the encoder end at the exact middle
of a loop.  The strands melted and parted. 


Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on June 01, 2013, 07:46:19 AM
instrumentation tech kicks in:  what was the failure mode?   only 1/4 of the motor failed?   hmmmmmm
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on June 01, 2013, 08:18:14 AM
I don't think it really matters if it 1/8 1/4 or 1/2 fails,  all it takes is one phase to go and it is done for.. 

I never did like the 8 in hand (scary) 1624 circular mills in a 18 gauge wire, 8 wires = 12992 circular mills total,  rule, 300 on the low side 400 average circular mills per amp.  So 12992 cir-mils divide by 400 = 32 amps per one 18 gauge.

I would say a lot of amps for one 18 gauge wire.???????  that is where the (scary) part comes from.. And then you have miz with his heavy foot in it.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 01, 2013, 07:15:17 PM
Just for those who are interested...

The decoder end is the worst by almost double the damage.

The tie strings on both enda melted and burned.

The wire on the decoder end only, was extremely hot.  The drive nd was not damaged, but it bubbled the varnish and melted the strings.

The wiring is chared as it exits the stator on the encoder end.  The slot papers are burned too.

The stator seems to be save able, it just needs a big clean up and new slot papers.

There is now continuity between one phase and the motor frame.

I feel I will find burnt wires from inside the slots.

As an aside: Ivan and I both were uneasy about the low count of inhand wires.  We only did this to see where our bottom count would be.

In none of the previous 11 winds or so, we're any burned spots.  This is the first.

So add this to your records....do not drop below twelve in hand wires when winding.

Now on to the next one.  Ivan will pick up the stator Monday sometime.

Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on June 02, 2013, 07:56:24 AM
Ivan is right about the failure.  It doesn't matter that some PART failed, motor is now toasted and inop. 

However, to me,  this failure looks to be somewhat process related, and I was attempting to preclude further failures of the same type. YMMV
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 02, 2013, 07:35:57 PM
Today, I stripped the old wire out and somewhat cleaned the stator.

It is ready to go back to Ivan's Garage for it's fifth rewind.

Ivan just swung by and picked it up.

miz

P.S.:  This failure was caused by two things.  The 8 in hand
bundle we were forced to use to get all of the turns we wanted
and  both times we skipped stator slots, we gained some RPM,
 but both motors ran really hot.  I woulsd never go under 12 in
hand on any motor using a Curtis controller.  This is especially
 important in vehicles heavier than mine and hilly terrain.

As  far as skipping slots:(my personal theory), Skipping slots
is just a way to build in some mechanical field weakening allowing
a higher RPM. BUT it is fixed and can not be dialed out like with the
controller. 

On both motors we skipped slots on, the free running RPM went up, But
it was not all usable because there was no real torque up high.

Curtis Controllers do not have a mechanical frequency control,
which would be handy at times.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 03, 2013, 05:51:45 PM
I think we need to start a dyno testing thread, so it is easier to find when Ivan begins his testing.

But will still keep writing up the mods to my car here.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on June 05, 2013, 02:25:43 PM
Quote
Curtis Controllers do not have a mechanical frequency control, which would be handy at times.
 
what do you mean by this?
mechanical frequency control.. isn't that the same thing as rotor speed control?  of course curtis has speed control function..   you must have meant something else?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 05, 2013, 04:01:24 PM
Sorry to be confusing:

I was referring to frequency not RPM.

Curtis, in their quest to make a user friendly controller, combined several functions
and control them with an algorithm, which is set when doing the "auto-run portion of
the optimization routine. 

Waverider, for example does not and by that virtue, has more used settable parameters.

A Waverider is harder to set up, but is capable of doing a better job of running one of our motors.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on June 05, 2013, 10:30:59 PM
I wonder what control Curtis uses?  DO you know Miz is it FOC?  And if you could control things a little different I think you could bring the amps down at speed.   

Actually if the wheels of your car are in the Air what is the amps at say 50mph VS actually driving 50mph?
It sounds like your set up is using more current then needed and I think (not an expert) that it could be limited by the control?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 06, 2013, 05:52:46 AM
I do not really know just what exactly Curtis uses.

It just makes sense that the more items you can
adjust, the better you could optimise the controller
 to the individual motor.

Most people buy a system from HPEV or someone. 

Install it in their car.

Set the type of throttle.

Set if regen is on or off.
If on they set it to a pedal off or a pot 2 regen.
If it is a pedal off regen, they set the percentage
 needed by weight of car.  If pot 2 type regen, then
 they set the type of pot used.

They then set the pack voltage.

And thats about it for a normal system owner.

I then set more. Like perform an optimization auto run.

Then do a stalled rotor slip adjustment.

Then do a field weakening base speed test and set the base speed.

Finally I adjust the field weakening percentage.

And finally the field weakening curve.


There are a lot of "assumptions" made by Curtis about a lot of other parameters.
They seem to be set to suit HPEV motors. It is done by their VCL version.
If I were smart enough to write a custom VCL, There are a lot of things I
could make a tad better I think.

Ivan's dyno will let us do a really accurate locked rotor test and get
perfect torque readings and results. I am doing their alternate
acceleration test, which is very subjective.

The dyno will also allow us to draw up a nice graph of torque,
Horsepower, voltage and current.

BTW:  All HPEV graphs and figures use battery current and voltage. 
I am really interested in RMS voltage, current AND frequency.
I have been reading them from the hand held and my RMS
amp-clamp meter.

I discovered that adding or subtracting batteries from the pack
did not really alter the RMS values.....

Leading me to another belief: The new systems will cost you 150
 amps of motor current and will give a few AH of batteries (Mileage).

Remember: this is not a DC system where you get out what you put in.....
(voltage wise)

If that is true, then the new high voltage controller will not offer higher motor voltage.

Just a speculation, not a hard fact...yet.
Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on June 06, 2013, 07:38:32 PM
arlo - curtis uses indirect field oriented control. 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on June 06, 2013, 08:56:52 PM
Yes Miz its a different thing to add motor amps vs battery amps etc. 
I see it when running on my dyno.  At a stall limiting the motor (phase) amps to ~300 amps.  I'm using ~2000 watts (83-84v and ~23 battery amps)  This Is because the limit is in the motor amps.   SO... If I up the voltage it would not make any more power at a stall because torque is based on phase amps.  Upping the voltage changes the top rpm.... So it can extend the torque curve to a higher rpm making more HP.  This only makes you accelerate faster if you can gear down other wise this is useless unless you can use a higher top speed.

Now all of that is based on a BLDC motor.
So what I think I understand BIG I THINK,  Is upping the voltage in a induction motor lets you extend the torque curve to a higher rpm but will not make more torque as long as your torque was limited by the motor (phase) amps.  But....  With a guy like Ivan to rewind the motor you can make the torque curve move to rpms based on the winding.  So... Question is  if you wind it for lower voltage can you feed enough amps to make it useful and is the iron or copper saturating?  You last motor you saturated the copper fast so it will need a lot more copper!  Again IM not an expert but before I rewind one and possibility make a controller for one I think I kind of need to be....
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: arlo1 on June 06, 2013, 08:59:27 PM
The Curtis controller... I forgot to ask maybe I don't need to...  What's the Motor or phase amp limit??  If its 650 and 120v hot off the charger max I think I'm not far away from being able to build the hardware... I think the work will need to be in the code. 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on June 07, 2013, 04:02:12 PM
one good test to discover where you are, with a BLDC motor, is to rotate the motor shaft at rated speed and then measure the terminal wire voltage to see what the line-to-line is.  then convert this to DC equivalent (google 3-phase rectification formula) and make sure the result is 10% less than your LOWEST running battery voltage (i.e. not the fresh charge value).  then you will know that the speed limitation is not due to DC voltage.

with induction the same test does not work because rotating the motor shaft does not produce voltage since you do not have luxury of magnets creating the field.  i'm really not sure how to do the same test with an induction motor to be honest.. will have to think about it. 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on June 09, 2013, 05:50:32 PM
Hello everyone.

After running the first motor, (which I really liked but had a 3,100rpm limit)
We went with a really low voltage/high current second motor( it used too much current at cruise but was fine otherwise.)
The third motor used a skip/slot wind and operated within my needs for direct drive, but it ran quite warm and although used less current during cruise, it still was not exactly right for my my car.

I have come to the decision that if this next motor winding meets my needs, I am prepared to regear the drive axle to suit it.

Ivan is occupied for the next few weeks, so not much will happen.  I am going to use that time to finish my hand brake and do a few other needed small mods to the car.

Miz

Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 05, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
YAHOO!!

This is the first two phases of version 5:
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/versionIV_zpsf89afbc6.jpg)

It needs the last phase, the thru casing terminals, phase insulation, tied with string, then
assembled and static tested before varnished and baked.

I am salivating already...

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on July 07, 2013, 07:23:41 PM
Got her done.  12 in hand, two turns, four coils per pole, 30 degree spread on the phases.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 08, 2013, 03:22:47 PM
Well, I finally got home from Tucson.

It is 110 F in my shaded garage (with two fans going), assembly/installation will have to wait until tomorrow AM....Early
Like 3AM or so.


It only takes me about 45 minutes to get it all together and back installed.

Then back down the familiar path.(auto run to set the slip-Turn off the FW
 so I can determine the FW base speed- and lastly lots and lots of hours
going thru the FW settings to get an acceptable torque curve and current
draw).

I am looking forward to this because it is basically my best torque monster
 motor but the phase spacing has been tightened up from 60-120 Deg  to 30-60 Deg.
(Tesla even gets down to 10 Deg on theirs)

This is supposed to affect the RPM/frequency relationship.  Meaning it should
have a greater top RPM than the torque monster had, but still has the ultra strong
 0-1200 RPM torque.

We shall see.  tomorrow

Miz

If it proves out, I will remove it and return to Tucson for a dip/bake at the motor shop.
I then need a new driveshaft tube, 4.5" shorter to move the motor to it's correct place
and if needed, I will change the rear gears to set my top speed to 80 MPH. It is
an in-town car, remember?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 09, 2013, 08:26:00 AM
OOPS!  The ultra close phase spacing seems to be out of the Curtis controller's ability
to compensate for.

It has severe cogging.

I have it back out of the car, disassembled and ready to go back to Tucson for
 respacing to standard and a dip-n-bake, so I can install it permanently in
my car.  If past experience holds true, I can then regear the drive axle to
give me a decent 65 MPH, (as I never drive out of town).

This will be a copy of our strongest motor winding so-far, giving extremely
 robust 0-1200 RPM torque and decent 1200 - 3,100 RPM torque.  It also
had a comparible 45 MPH cruise current to my AC50.   Allowing
me to regear the final drive and have a very easy to drive single geared car.

(I would not go over 2,000 Lbs for a direct drive car.)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 09, 2013, 08:52:01 AM
Can't wait for final results! Coils, turns, length of wire. I have something I would like to start a conversion on, this will be my basis for a motor!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 10, 2013, 04:54:38 AM
I have removed the motor in my car, yet another time.  It is disassembled and ready to go back to Ivan Saturday, for him to move over the phase spacing back to standard.

We are both disappointed that this closer spacing didn't work with the Controller as it does in the Teslas.

Still, I guess it is still knowledge and we would have always wondered if it would have worked.

I have been using a factory Ford Ranger pick up driveshaft in my car.  It has has some type of damage done to it at some point as it has a high speed vibration.  I need to have this redone to stop it before it causes some secondary problem. 

I can have it shortened 4.5" at the same time to place the motor in the perfect spot in my car, (I want the u-joint farther under the firewall and place a little more weight on the drive axle to lighten up the steering when sitting still.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 14, 2013, 04:17:26 PM
Ivan is about done rewinding my motor at this point.  I am going back to the very
first winding pattern he did.  It gave brute torque from a stop and good current
draw at cruise, but it's short comings was that it only had a 3,100 RPM top speed.

I have done the calcs on it and I am going to change my gears to 5.13 ratio, giving
 a 60 MPH top speed.  I only drive in city traffic at 45 MPH, so 50 MPH is my real top.

When winding a direct drive motor, you need four things:

1-A flat torque curve.
2-A low cruise current draw
3-A decently high top RPM
4-Ability to take a high amp current for a short time.(controller max)

Unfortunately you can get only three.  You get to choose which one to skip.

I chose top RPM, as I can re-gear to make up.

This winding pattern is wonderful for a transmission too.  If I put the Powerglide back in and 3.50 gears, it would screech the tires from a stop and still do 85 MPH.

I just wanted to do a direct drive car.  It is spooky quiet and smooth.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on July 15, 2013, 05:41:38 PM
Ok here is the final wind,18 gauge, 12 inhand, 2 turns, four coils per pole,
60-120 phase spacing. I did a final dip (poured) the varnish on the windings and put it in the barbeque to bake at 350 degrees for 2.5 hours.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 16, 2013, 11:07:18 PM
How often did you need to brush on the sauce?

How many hard lemonades did it take?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 17, 2013, 04:48:08 AM
I am back from Tucson and will be putting the motor back in the car.

(Hopefully getting some miles on it.)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 17, 2013, 01:52:16 PM
Could you summarize the 3 or 4 windings you've done, the pros and cons. I've reread  the thread and gotten kinda scattered info.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 17, 2013, 05:13:21 PM
That sounds like a good job for tomorrow afternoon when it gets to be a zillion degrees F.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 17, 2013, 08:53:57 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 18, 2013, 05:34:11 PM
Motor Variations We have tried.

Not counting Ivan's own motor, We have done 5 variations on mine.
(Ivan please edit for accuracy where needed)

Early test motors used 15 Ga magnet wire.  It was way too hard to
deal with when hand winding and actually caused hand cramps. We
 now use 18 Ga. wire exclusively.  It is a trade off of robust VS flexibility.

-V1= This was our first thought when doing a 20Hp core.  It was
supposed to have decent torque, low current draw and a top RPM of 4,500.
It used 12 in hand wires that were about 75 Feet long.  It was a higher voltage
design that went two turns around each pole coil. (12 in hand X 2 turns = slot fill)
But, the RPM fell short at 3,100.

It was our best all around motor. When geared perfectly or when using a
transmission, it would be my pick of all.

-V2= Our second try was based on the Curtis controller's low voltage range. 
        It was 20 in hand wires 36 feet long, with one turn around each coil.
 It was a lower voltage/higher amperage design with a top RPM of 4,900.
 The torque curve was flat and totally adequate for any purpose,  but had
a slightly high current draw under cruise.

-V3= Ah, yes, number 3...This was a variation on V1. It used the same 12
in hand and about 72 feet long. But we went to 3 coils (not 4) and skipped
 slots in each coil, to try to raise the RPM some.  Well, it did that. It would
free run 6,100 RPMs...But there was no usable torque over 3,300 RPM.

-V4= 8 in hand, 4 coils per phase, 85 feet long wires. three turns per coil.
It was a very high 70-90 volt design. It was an attempt to get torque/RPM and
low current draw. The 8 in hand was not up to the current required and
ran really hot.

-V5= used the V1 -12 in hand, 75 feet wires, 2 turns, But used a closer
phase spacing strategy. It confused the Curtis controller and refused
to run well.
  (severe cogging)

-V6= is really V1 with 12 in hand, 75 feet of wire, two turns per coil,
4 coils per phase, standard phase spacing. (our very first motor).

This is in the car and will likely stay there.  It will come back out at
some point to run on the Dyno to get some actual data on it.


At this point, If self winding a core motor, I would:

Strip it, clean it, spray it with the red varnish, cut new
papers and sticks,

Install one slot paper and Lay pieces of 18 Ga wire in
the slot until I could get my top stick to barely go in.
Count the strands, divide by 2 to get my in hand strand count.

Use iron tie wire to lay in one complete phase. Measure it for length.
and add 3 feet extra for each end.  Add it up to get your phase length
of wire.


Multiply your phase length times your in hand count, then
multiply times three phases to get the total amount of wire you must buy.

Pull out one phase length of strands (times your in hand count) and roll
 that bundle up. Do it three times to make your phases.

Lay in phase 1, skip over the right count for your phase
separation and lay in phase 2.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/DF720707-21E0-4284-97CC-480154A92466-2299-00000A08F88C23FB_zps5c8feefe.jpg)

 Move over your separation again and lay in phase three.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/versionIV_zpsf89afbc6.jpg)
You have 6 phase end bundles. (2 wire bundle ends per phase)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/7D5A27F3-E75A-490D-8290-ACDA6E753C49-6811-0000135525B19484_zpsf716123b.jpg)
Group two appropriate phase end bundles together to
make one motor lead. Do again for lead 2 and again for lead 3. 


Put in your phase end papers and tie up the end return
loops with string.  Place fiberglass tubing over the three
 motor leads.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/043FCC00-1AF0-43B8-9FDD-9E1E6026555D-711-000001E47958395B_zps3d65e5ce.jpg)

At this point you can either do as we did and use
thru-case-terminals
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/9675B457-61F7-4B60-8A22-8003D30E71AB-711-000001E49709C86E_zps6bb05043.jpg)

OR do like HPEV and bring the motor
 leads out of the case thru a slot cut out.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/368e6899-orig.jpg)

Soak the windings in motor varnish, allow to drip dry for an hour,
Then bake at 350 F for 2.5 hours to cure.

Clean off the stator slot ends where they come in close proximity
to the rotor.You can epoxy paint it lightly if you want, but I
believe in bare metal.

Reassemble motor using new bearings. Silicone the encoder end
wavy washer with three dots of silicone and allow to dry. This keeps
it from dislodging during assembly.

It is actually easier than it sounds.....

Miz


 
       
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 18, 2013, 09:22:10 PM
Thanks, good info!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 19, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
So, we have in hand count (wires basically paralleled), turns per coil, coils per pole and then 4 poles. Would have been interesting to see what V2 would have done wye connected. May have decreased amps, used more voltag (due to going through two windings instead of Delta) and has less toque with a broader curve. Would have also been cool to see what a 6 pole would do, torque and rpm wise.
Well, now to find a couple motor cores. The Prius stators may be a good start. Magnetically very efficient metal. Just need an induction rotor to fit.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 19, 2013, 11:36:54 AM
As stated in many places on the forum, there is no advantage to trying to create a Wye connection.  It would change the voltage far beyond the Curtis controller's ability to compensate.  Strike 2 is that there is no room inside the motor to put a huge three 12 strand bundle without hitting the rotor.

Also stated elsewhere is the need to stay 4 pole.  That is the absolute best for an induction drive motor.

I am having trouble getting adequate torque anyways.  I am a torque addict.......

Miz 
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on July 19, 2013, 11:48:53 AM
Yeah, I've read all that. V2 was wound too low a voltage, high apms. That's why I suggested connecting wye would raise the voltage, and still be in range of the controller.
You're a torque addict, hadn't noticed, lol. 6 poles makes more torque... just sayin. The point of the forum was to diy, everything that everyone one else said can't be done!
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 19, 2013, 11:02:14 PM
In short:

The Wye voltage range with our winding was out of the
controller's ability to compensate.

A 6 pole motor would have too low of an RPM peak to
do any good unless you had  5 or 6 speed transmission.

Ivan and I have verbally beat up so many types and
configurations of motor winding that we have come
to the conclusion that every major manufacturer
has...4 pole.

Unfortunately we do not have a reasonably priced alternative controller.

One with about double the RMS voltage.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: HighHopes on July 20, 2013, 03:20:23 AM
i really like these posts, the more pictures the better.

you mentioned a desire for more voltage ..  lets say you had a curtis controller that was magically 600V rated.  wouldn't this be ideal?  not only do you get the voltage you want but also
- motor phase windings copper is smaller for same torque so easier to wind
- battery cabling is smaller gauge.  600V rated cable is readily available (common industrial voltage in canada)
- i don't think that DIY motor winding for 1200V isolation will be a problem with good paper & varnish
- is it hard to DIY your own multi cell battery pack to reach 600V (576V)?  i don't know, never looked into it.
- Nissan Leaf and others use 600V battery so maybe you could get battery from them instead as it comes with 10 yr warranty (maybe you can't use that if it is not in a leaf, but at least the quality of build is there).  there will be so many EVs out there in the next 5 years the price should come down too.

i have personally design a high performance high reliability motor drive at 600V, 50kW rated (continuous).  all components designed from scratch except i did not do the software coding.  it was fully military qualified to exacting standards and honestly, though it took a year to complete on my own all the hardware, didn't seem that hard to do.. not sure what curtis's hesitancy is.. maybe cost is too high?  or maybe they plan on it, just taking it one step at a time?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 20, 2013, 04:21:36 AM
One big concern with high voltage systems is lethality.
First responders are already freaked out by electric
vehicles, what do you think they would do with a
"home made" 600 Volt car?

When you get past the 400 volt region, components
 get scarcer and more costly too.

Large multi-cell packs...Yes, there is a higher hurdle
 to get over when designing them, but not non-do able.

When you get down to it, ALL packs are really multi
cell and will require a more sophisticated BMS to
watch over them.

The only down side of buying a pre-made pack from
another car is that it is a fixed form factor.  Sometimes
 fitting it into another bodywork is a challenge.
If it can be broken down into smaller components,
then that and the lower price would be a plus.


In my world, a 200 Volt system would be a trade off
between safety, component selection and  power
factoring. That would be 59 cells for a pack.

Using my car as an example:

38-130AH cells @ 130 Volts- My pack
59- 80 AH cells  @ 200 volts= A close equal.

The packaging for the 59 smaller cells becomes
problematic as each now has a BMS board
plus they need to be double decked to fit
into the same space.

The price of cells per AH remains the same,
but mounting becomes complex and expensive
as does the extra $250 for more BMS boards.

But does the performance "perk" seem worth it?
I guess we may have to build one to find out.

Anyone want to build the 200 Volt controller?
(we might get up some project funding)

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on July 25, 2013, 03:04:48 PM
I had several errands to run Tuesday and put 46.2 miles on the car.

The pack was down to where the sag was near the 2.5 volts/cell mark.
It was still at 3.25 volts/cell when sitting.

Just guessing, I probably had 5-8 miles left if driven carefully to get
to the 3.0 volts/cell level.

The motor was running 108-111 C............

My guess is that I need to work on my top end field weakening percentage.
I need to bring it down to where it starts lowering the torque. Then go up
a tad. Over weakening is heat, heat is wasted current and current is mileage.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: piotrsko on August 04, 2013, 06:03:32 AM
Earth to miz:  you have fallen off the face of the earth with all your side projects and left us wondering about how the last wind ended up. please elucidate.  Data points?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on August 04, 2013, 08:30:22 AM
Anyone want to build the 200 Volt controller?
(we might get up some project funding)

Miz

Kelly has a 144v(180 max pack), up to 600a, bldc and induction controller. I've read all about Kelly controllers blowing up and the controllers being over rated. I've also read a handful of things about that being early controllers, and that they've gotten better.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on August 04, 2013, 10:21:59 AM
Anyone want to build the 200 Volt controller?
(we might get up some project funding)

Miz

Kelly has a 144v(180 max pack), up to 600a, bldc and induction controller. I've read all about Kelly controllers blowing up and the controllers being over rated. I've also read a handful of things about that being early controllers, and that they've gotten better.

I have had a kelly on my electric bike for 5 years, never had a problem and easy to program. 

Few.. do you have a link for the kelly 144v.?  Is it ac induction motor controller.?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on August 04, 2013, 10:56:10 AM
http://kellycontroller.com/general-brushless-controllers-12v-144v-c-23.html
Check around the products and options, more than a few to look at.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on August 04, 2013, 10:56:26 AM
Hi guys....<embarrassed>

I have been sort of busy, but that is not a good excuse.


So far, the car drives nicely in traffic.  It will jump off at the light and
do 2 car lengths over the other cars. (which the AC50 in high gear would not do)

The mid range is a little softer in torque, but acceptable in my car, as it keeps up in traffic OK.

The high end searches a little and gets up to 3,600 RPM as the top. (56 MPH)

After about 3,100 RPM it begins to whine a little, meaning a tad too much field weakening, heat and current draw.

The traffic will eventually catch up and pass me, but I am at 5 MPH over the limit at that point.



I need to fine tune the high end field weakening some to eliminate the loud whine while keeping the same torque.
(I already did that in the mid range region.  I just got tired of all the adjusting and needed to drive it a little.)

I am confident I have gotten all of the torque possible out of this motor within reason.  Any gains from here will be much smaller.

The top end field weakening  needs brought down. (Noise, heat and current draw)
The mid range field weakening is spot on. (Quiet, smooth decent power)
The initial torque is very close to max, but might have a little left to get out of it. (Good initial jump, still want it to chirp the tires)

So, the car has 900+ miles on the Odo.  at this point.

Starting monday AM ,  I will go back to putting 2 hours / day in it adjusting some more.
Ivan's dyno will make all of this much easier.

Miz

PS:  I might need to change out the rear gearing to 5.13 ratio.

I drive 45MPH roads mostly (at 50MPH).

6.14 = 56MPH and a 50MPH cruise is at 3200RPM (in the "whine region"- higher current and heat)
5.13 = 67MPH and a 50MPH cruise is at 2700RPM (In the "quiet" region-lower current and heat)

The $200 investment might be cheaper in the long run for me.


Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: Ivan on August 04, 2013, 01:21:42 PM
http://kellycontroller.com/general-brushless-controllers-12v-144v-c-23.html
Check around the products and options, more than a few to look at.

Nice but no such luck, these are bldc  dc controllers.
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: few2many on August 10, 2013, 08:18:58 AM
Right, trapezoidal control instead of of sinusoidal. But still, They do have induction controllers, and I think I saw pmac/ipm controllers of lower voltage.
Been a liitle quiet in here. Miz, how's the motor and optimization working out?
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on August 10, 2013, 08:53:54 AM
GiveN the limitations we have in the Curtis controller, I am confident I have gotten the performance wrung out.  I am now tweaking it to reduce the current in late mid range and top end without losing any of that performance.

It all has been very interesting, but it really highlighted the limited scope of adjustments in this controller.  (when compared to others on the market)

I am really saying that for the price range, it is a fine controller, but as an ex hotrodder, I guess it is always my lot to want more.

After Ivan finishes the dyno, I will take the motor to him to get some real world figures.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on August 18, 2013, 11:16:15 AM
Just a quick note:

I pretty much have the car wrung out and the controller set up.

I am now just trying to run longer and longer miles per charge to see where I finally get.  I also need to zero my ZEVA loop sensor to make my "Gas" gauge work accurately.

After the weather gets cooler, I need to wet sand and clear coat the hood, (It is still in as sprayed condition.)

I also have two other projects on the car:

1- A spare tire carrier for the tail end.

2- A convertible top.

Cheers, Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on August 25, 2013, 03:02:59 PM
No, I'm not dead>
___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________

Truth be told, I have my car to the state where I just like to drive it. 
I take it out every day 4-5 miles and weekly 25-35 miles.

If any of you are familiar with Arizona summers...then you know that
we long-time residents always reserve all work for spring and fall of the year.

Car wise, I need to paint the e-Brake and it is done.
Buy the top iron kit and custom remake it to fit.
Mount the spare tire to the tail.
Lastly, wet sand the hood and poly clear it

Motor wise, I am waiting for Ivan to get his controller reflashed by HPEV's
so we can run his and my motors to get some figures.  That is still on the list.

I spend my indoor time on other projects, like the Segway, and a Quadcopter.

Later, don't forget me....Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on September 05, 2013, 05:47:46 AM
I drove 38 miles yesterday.  A quick overnite's recharge and I am good to go to my
dentist appt. today. (About 38-40 miles)

I have over a thousand miles on Ivan's motor if you include all of the versions. 
This one is a keeper as it fits all of my daily requirements.

I feel that the only way to get a better motor is to seek out an inverter duty/high
efficiency motor to start with as the stator and rotor plates would be of a better quality.

I always get lookers and interested people who are amazed that I built the car. 
They all are of the same opinion: "If an electric car was possible, Detroit would be making them."
They buy in to the popular belief that the technology does not exist.

Miz
Title: Re: copper rotors
Post by: mizlplix on September 15, 2013, 12:58:40 AM
The model A chassis/suspension is extremely stiff and bumpy.  It is hard to hold the throttle
pedal totally still when your leg and foot are vibrating, so it is hard getting a steady cruise
current reading.

But, it varies from 80 to 110 amps.  The AC50 varied from 75 to 90 amps as a comparison.

The AC50 had no torque to speak of from zero to 2,000 RPM, where it took off and ran strong up to about 6,500 RPM.
It required a low gear to have a normal feeling take off.

Ivan's motor is strong enough in low end torque as to not need a low gear.  It takes off easily and moderately fast
in my 1,900 Lb car so it can run direct drive.  It does have a shorter top RPM limit at 3,700 (55 MPH).

Which I find to be OK for around town driving.  It keeps up well in traffic and actually jumps off the line well ahead of
the other cars and it takes them 1/2 the block to catch and pass me. 

I can change out my rear gear to a 5.13 ratio.  It would give me 10 more MPH but cost a few more acceleration amps.
It would drop my cruise RPM about 500 and put it into a lower consumption area too.  Maybe to the AC50 level.

Miz
Title: Drive hand regen
Post by: mizlplix on September 23, 2013, 08:42:15 PM
Here is a video of me driving around the block
in my car as of today, Sept. 23, 2013.

This is using one of Ivan's motors in direct drive.
The car is geared for 60 MPH top speed and a
brisk take off.

When you see me hold up my hand, I am about
to use the regen brake to stop with no foot brake at all.

In the latter half of the video,
a car passes me, I am doing 52 MPH in a 45
zone and she is doing almost 70 MPH.
(for comparison purposes)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqeuxGBFHas


-----------------------------------------------------------           
Title: optimization routine.
Post by: mizlplix on October 13, 2013, 05:21:51 AM
Greetings to all:

After a quick test run up and doing the first third part of the controller optimization routine, It looks like it is a runner!

It accelerates in RPMs really fast.  I was wondering about the 8" rotor diameter making it a little slow....<NOT>

http://www.youtube.com/v/vn1hY0KzDE8

The last two thirds of the procedure are conducted with the motor in the car and driveable.

So, You know where to find me for the foreseeable future.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on November 26, 2013, 07:34:06 AM
Winter has finally set in here in Arizona.  (Ya, it qualifys for winter at least for us.)
 The daily ambient hovers around 45-55F.

SO, open car driving requires some layering of clothes., and a careful decision of
when to drive and when to stay in.

We recently got through 4 days of solid rain, which we needed, but My ride lacks
windshield wipers (And a top, heater, fenders, ETC)

I still get in 20-35 miles twice a week or more.

Ivan has finally gotten his dyno smoothed out and operating nicely.  We intend to
get together after the holidays and dyno my car's motor And possibly fine tune it
some.

His dyno controller has an open VCL which allows him to adjust everything within
Curtis's programmed in limits.  If this allows me to improve my motor's performance,
I will have my controller re-flashed also.

Currently, I have added back one of the cells I disconnected, bringing my total up
to 37 and my voltage to 125.3

I have been operating with 37 for a few weeks now and it seems to suffer less
sag and might have slightly more range.  It does feel more "Zippy".

I have an additional cell I can hook back in for a total of 38 and a voltage of 129.1

It keeps it under the controllers 130 Max as long as I do not regen for the first few miles.


Until then, Everyone have a GREAT Holiday!

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 13, 2014, 07:52:07 PM
I guess I have had too much time on my hands lately.  I started thinking about gearing and how to get a little more out of my car.

I am running 6.14 gears and direct drive.  The tall tires give me about 50 MPH top speed and a jack rabbit take off, but it cruises at 3,100 RPM, slightly into the field weakening zone which leaves me in the 80-110 Amp @ 50 MPH draw range.

I would like my cruise to be under 80 Amps and that means changing my rear gear.  That also would take away that nice low end jump my car has at stoplights.

My conclusion.......to put the powerglide back in and change the rear gear ratio to 4.10. 

That would give me 38 MPH in low and 75 MPH in high.  It would also do two other things:

It would give me a 7.43 low gear. (from 6.14 to 7.43 would give me a better jump)

Lower my cruise RPM to 2,200 @ 50 MPH. (Well below the point where any field weakening starts)  That should greatly reduce my cruise amp draw.

All it would take is to simply put back the transmission, the short driveshaft, the charge pump, the mounting plate at the bellhousing, then remake a front motor mount.

I saved all of my hardware, bolts, hoses, and shifter for the trans.  I would need to make a motor coupler from the T400 splines and mount the motor to the plate with a C face end bell courtesy of Ivan.

I guess I found something to keep me busy for a while.

Miz



Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: HighHopes on January 14, 2014, 08:28:59 PM
i'm just trying to learn about EVs with these n00b questions, plus i have 0 mechanical skills so.. please bear with me

when you say 3100RPM that is tire speed.  what would your electrical motor rotation speed be?  probably the curtis controller knows this answer, does it display?

when you say gears of 6.14 and that it is direct drive.. i'm a bit confused.  do you have a gear box and inside is a gear ratio of 6.14?  or no gear box, no transmission, the 6.14 is exactly the ratio between tire speed & electrical motor mechanical rotation (so electrical machine speed = 3100rpm/6.14 = 500Hz)?
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 15, 2014, 02:59:54 AM
Good morning, HH!
Quote
when you say 3100RPM that is tire speed.  what would your electrical motor rotation speed be?
No, 3,100 RPM is the motor speed. RPMs stated are always assumed to be Engine (or motor) speed, even if there is or is not a transmission, just because of the myriad of drive types.  My car is said to be "direct drive " Because the wheels are driven directly by the electric motor without any cut out (clutch or disconnect) or transmission.


Quote
when you say gears of 6.14 and that it is direct drive
Drive axles are not thought of as a transmission (unless they are said to be a "transaxle"), so they are merely a reduction system and thereby still direct driven.

So, my car is like this:


Rear wheels(on Drive axle)....driveshaft....Electric motor. (reversed by controller)

Wheel RPM=1.........driveshaft/motor RPM=6.14



Quote
(so electrical machine speed = 3100rpm/6.14 = 500Hz)
No, wheel RPM= motor RPM / 6.14 and freq. is more like 103.3333333Hz

4 poles, and 3100RPM with a conversion factor of 120 (electrical degrees per phase).

3,100/120 X 4=103.33333 Hz

Which is witnessed by the Curtis controller is only capable of 300 Hz max.

Example: AC50......can do 8,000RPMs

8000/120 X 4= 266.6666Hz  (and so per HPEV claims)

120 Deg /4 poles X 300 (theoretical controller max)=9,000RPMs on a small AC motor (Small rotor, low saturation motor that is)

My 8" rotor monster can only get at a stretch, 3,600 RPM with a tail wind.

Meaning : 3,600/120 (phase degrees) X 4 poles = 120 Hz (in theory)

Actual RMS motor freq. is a little different due to friction and slip. (but not much)

OK?   Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: HighHopes on January 15, 2014, 04:22:14 PM
got it, makes a lot more sense.  thx.

by the way, i was reading in an acedemic text book on the subject how for direct drive EV you need a controller than can do 5x base speed.   if normal frequency is 60Hz, and 5x60 = 300Hz then it sounds like curtis can do that, so this is good.  but with your particular winding (i.e. Volts / kRPM) and battery voltage you are reaching a different limitation, not the controller capability.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 15, 2014, 07:43:12 PM
Yah, all of that nice back iron gets saturated.  Then our winding, for some reason, does not take well to field weakening.  It will use just so much, then starts protesting by noise, heat and high amp draw(but no more RPM).

My guess, I need a lower voltage winding, but you must reduce by a turn at a time.  Half turns do not work for the way we wind.  We have worked up and down that area and this seems to be the overall best for this motor.

In a strange way, a slightly smaller motor might actually be better for my needs as it might be able to be wound for one of those in between voltages....

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: HighHopes on January 16, 2014, 07:50:08 PM
on the one hand you want low motor voltage constant (bEMF) so that for the same DC battery pack you can have very high speed.  on the other hand you want very high motor torque constant so that the machine has some pep.

the two things are like this mathematically: 

A = B

if you want more A then B must go down.  if you want more B then A must go down.  for one particular size of machine (geometry) and with respect to your application (what is more important, torque or high speed?) then there will be a balance somewhere. 

5, 10, 20, 40HP induction motors seem like they are all the same.  like if i have seven different 10HP induction motors i would take them apart and measure the physical size of the parts and discover they are all about the same. stator about the same size as the rotor, only thing different is number of slots.  inverter rated induction motors, high efficiency copper machines, not included.. i'm just talking standard industrial find cheap at a re-wind shop's scrap bin.  so the geometry is fixed.

the application is always the same, EV for city use.  so we have a sense of what levels of torque and speed we need.

how much current is not fixed (depends on the voltage) but you have an idea of what the limit will be as you already found that 18AWG wire is best to use as you want highest current but still need to be able to bend the wires by hand. 

only true unrestricted variable is line-to-line voltage.  luckily you get to chose what voltage you want during the rewind process.  we know from ivan that lower is better.. but how low? 

i am wondering if the optimal voltage is somehow related to the HP rating of the machine.  like 40HP would find best performance if voltage weree 36V, 20HP at 72V, 10HP at 144V..   just a wild ass theory. 

i can already see in the inverter i am designing for my 10HP induction motor that based on the power electronics available it will be best performance at 144V.  i am making it for 72V for ivan's sake because he insists that lower voltage is better and i trust him.  but secretly i am designing it to be fairly easy to interchange between voltage levels so i can run a test at 144V and see for myself (learn by doing). 

that's my limited view so far.  i haven't actually built an EV yet so i really have no idea.  just sitt'n around having a BEvERage, discussing a fun hobby :)
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 21, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
 :HH*: OK, Back to the car.......
__________________________________________________________________

As I said elsewhere, I am going to put the transmission back in.  It just makes too much sense.

I will need to change out my rear gear to a 4.10 set, replace the powerglide, but keep the big motor.

Tomorrow, I will change out the gears. The reason for that to be done first:
To try the car direct drive with a really fast top speed gearset and see just how much torque this big rotored motor has. I am dying to see how this affects my car's zero to 20 MPH jump. With the 6.14 gearset, it will literally jump across the intersection WAY ahead of the other traffic, but it has a limited top speed of 55 MPH due to the motor's 3,600 RPM top.  The new 4.10 gears will provide good back to back testing.

The new set will provide a 7.43 low gear (with a 1.82 low in the trans.) and provide quite a zero to 20 MPH jump.  THEN when in high gear, it will have a 4.10 reduction and provide 75 MPH top speed.

A Perfect car for me. 

I do not really like the electrical reverse with a toggle switch. The Curtis controller is way picky that way.  You need to be perfectly stopped to shift or it will throw a fault and require a key cycle to work again, A Pain-in-the-A$$ when in traffic.

Tomorrow I start.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: HighHopes on January 21, 2014, 08:09:54 PM
Quote
A Pain-in-the-A$$ when in traffic.
sounds like me trying to drive stick-shift ::stall::  :Eg%:
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 22, 2014, 05:27:46 AM
lol, Ya, and it makes you feel like a NooB, having those PPl stare at you like you are a Rookie. (Learn to drive, sweetheart!).......

I have had many, many people ask me "How in hell did you learn to do all of this?"  "Are there classes or what?"

I always reply "No, you start at age 6, taking the family toaster apart, then move up to an old sewing machine before gapping spark plugs for your Dad and of course, reading everything in sight."

The car was simple to build. I just did one thing at a time.

An AC controller on the other hand is way beyond my capability.  I am envious of those who have the knowledge to think and "Dope" out the circuits and components.

It is probably the only area where I am seriously lacking in both training and actual experience.

That is why I am stuck with the Curtis controller, (that and poverty...LOL)

Miz

Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: piotrsko on January 22, 2014, 06:00:53 AM
not sure why you cant use the reverse light switch for your reverse toggle, possibly with a relay if you are actually using reverse lights.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 22, 2014, 06:38:48 AM
There are several interesting things that can be done for selecting reverse gear, but
It is a bad design in the Curtis controller that needs a delay of a few seconds AND needs absolutely ZERO speed at the motor (No rolling or coasting at all) or a fault is thrown.  This fault requires a key switch cycle to clear.  I assumed the dead band setting in the controller would handle this, apparently not.

I have become deliberate in my switching to or from reverse to eliminate the error and the embarrassment that accompanies it.  Just the "Pucker" factor that happens when a shift is required,  makes it an annoyance.

Maybe I am getting too sensitive about it?  Driving should be worry free as possible. 

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: piotrsko on January 22, 2014, 11:54:38 AM
no its a forklift thing otherwise the idiots running the warehouse stuff would probably just throw it back and forth between forward reverse,  destroy the gears and motor.  Old age; I have forgotten about warehousemen.
Title: A gear change.....
Post by: mizlplix on January 26, 2014, 07:58:33 AM
The effect of changing rear gears in an EV.
________________________________________________________________

OK, I caved in.  My original car build was with an AC50/powerglide/6.14 gears to provide a good low end jump and with the AC50's 8,000RPM top speed, I had a 68 MPH in low and a 124 MPH in high gear........

In reality, the AC50, even with that big 11.7 low gear ratio, had a soft take off. No tire squeal, smoke, nothing.  But in reality, it was a good performer in traffic. (Faster than 80% of the other cars.) With a 10.5 second zero-60 MPH time.

When I changed to the big motor and no transmission (plus the 6.14 gear), I had a
 good low end jump and with the big motor's 3,600 RPM top speed, I had a 56 MPH (only one gear-forwards)........ It had a great low end jump, zero to 25 MPH then it would smoothly pick up to the max speed. (The low jump was twice as quick as the surrounding traffic, but they caught up during the later RPM phase)

I was not really happy....contented...maybe, happy...no.

After careful thought and many hours of calcs, I decided on 4.10 gears and put the powerglide back in for that 1.82 reduction. (Giving a 7.43  low gear)

Well, I tried still a third idea, Change out the gear-THEN do the transmission later after driving it.........(OK, Ivan badgered me about it)

That motor only pulled 260 Amps at maximum acceleration. (That is not working very hard for a so-called big motor.) This gearing and single speed is just what we needed for our testing program. 

We had NEVER loaded one of Ivan's motors with a stupid gearing.  If it had been a DC motor, I am certain of the result....massive amp draw up to about 2,500 RPM due to a wrong gearing.

My original prediction was one of two:

1-It will be so over geared that it will hardly RPM and need the 1.82 that a trans provides. The amperage on the low end will be xtreme like 600 amps on takeoff.

2-It will drive OK due to the good low end torque and still get me a 75 MPH top speed.


WRONG on both counts.  It drives just a bit slower on the low end and it gains RPM slower than it did, but it needs the field weakening re set and maybe the F/W base speed also as it has a problem getting past 2,500 RPM.

Interesting!  The result falls half way between my min/max predictions.  If the F/W settings and curve help the RPM gain then there is a possibility I still do not need a transmission. 

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 25, 2014, 12:58:25 AM
No, the Tesla is 3 phase, the two wires you see are the pack DC leads going in.  The inversion is done inside the housing where you do not see it, or the three AC wires.

I have changed my final drive gear from 6.14 to 4.10.

The only change was that my top speed of 50 MPH is now at 2,100 RPM instead of the old 3,200 RPM. What a waste of time and money......

It seems that the torque requirement to acheve 50 mph went from 3,200 to 2,100RPM.  So the speed top stayed the same, just changed motor RPM.  Who woulda guessed.....

Extrapolating from that, I can predict that if I put the 5.14 back in and installed a 3 speed trans locked in second gear giving a 7.43 final drive ratio, My top speed would stay the same, just would be at something like 4,300 RPM.

It kinda hits a brick wall @ 50 MPH regardless of gearing.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 25, 2014, 02:15:21 PM
To be honest, I feel that my rotor is too large in diameter.  I also have not enough back iron. 

I need a 15 HP motor with fewer slots.  That would give me more back iron and a smaller rotor with a higher top RPM.   (There again, this is just my personal opinion.)

A motor with a 3 or 4 speed transmission would be tolerant of the high low RPM torque/weak top end torque that this motor has.  A direct drive motor is a difficult thing to design as it needs both good low end torque and also good top end RPM to get  your road speed.

I can sacrifice some low end torque if I can turn it into top end torque/RPM.  This requires a smaller diameter rotor and more back iron.

Miz 
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: rtz on February 25, 2014, 03:39:48 PM
It looks like a 15hp motor sells for $600-$800 new:

https://www.google.com/search?q=15+HP+motor&safe=off&espvd=213&es_sm=119&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=SBsNU47TDorloASwuYHoBA&ved=0CD4Qsxg&biw=1918&bih=959#q=15+HP+electric+motor&safe=off&tbm=shop

Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on February 25, 2014, 03:50:22 PM
The cool part is that I just need to get one from a scrap pile for $25 or so.  I am going to rewind it anyways.

Buying new is not necessary.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: rtz on March 03, 2014, 04:56:05 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 07, 2014, 11:55:24 PM
Hey everyone!
____________________________________________________________
I have been driving the car almost every day.  I have been messing with the field weakening settings again and have made some progress. 

After I changed the rear gears from 6.14 to 4.10, the motor effort went up quite a bit as figured.  But what I didnt plan on was that that huge motor took it in stride and runs really well.  I was able to alter the field weakening scheme to reduce the current draw down to around 110Amps @45 MPH. 

But it still cries for more battery.....even with a full charge and running all 38 cells at around 127 volts fully charged, I can sag it down to 3 volts/cell with a 12 second full throttle pull.  I need about twice the AH I have now to really use all of that torque and still not sag down to 3 volts/cell.

Tomorrow I will try to get a zero to 60 MPH time.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 24, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
Hello to Everyone!
___________________________________________________________________________ _________
I guess it is time to get back into saddle again.

After a long development period, Ivan and I have come up with an alternate plan......You guessed it, try another motor in the car....(Heh)

The plan is simple:  -The current motor has a longer (7")  stator and rotor but normal back iron.
 
                             -The new motor has a short (5") rotor and stator, But it has a smaller diameter stator
                             which allows that small diametric area to be added to the back iron.

It was a direct coupled pump/motor unit. Also 20 HP. It has the same finned aluminum center housing and will most probably use my present end bells.  (as I do not need the huge cast iron face mount).   I will need the new rotor shaft to be turned down and splined to the Powerglide size.  I have a new yoke to fit that.

It can use the old motor mount holes and everything.

Ivan is somewhere near Tucson until friday, then he is back on the road to Mississippi to deposit a truck load of metal bits that Caterpiller calls parts. If it weren't for all of those interruptions, the project would go faster........(HeH)

BTW: This whole project requires a LOT of time and labor from Ivan.  If it were not for Ivan's dogged persistence and capability to run 100 miles on each bottle of Mike's Hard Lemonade, this project would not be possible.

Miz







Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: piotrsko on March 24, 2014, 04:27:56 PM
Dumb question:  on your yoke why do you have to machine a spline on the motor?  Could you just bore out the yoke to shaft size and pin it to the motor with a 1/4" bolt?  My ranger has a slider drive shaft.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: few2many on March 24, 2014, 09:04:54 PM
Piotrsko, Splines allow for slip, so the drive shaft can plunge and extend with suspension movement. Plus, stronger than a pin.

My mistake.I see you are asking why spline a motor shaft when the drive shaft could be splined. Whether slip yoke, or fixed output, all transmissions are splined, not pinned, much stronger.

Miz, why not try the dual 5" rotor and stator? Butt then up to each other for a small diameter, 10" assembly?
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Yes, it is for driveshaft growth under bumps, even though it moves about 1/4" total.

I already had the driveshaft.......or your solution would work.

Even if the two stators are smack dab against each other, they each require a separate controller.  AND even if I used two AC50's for example.....I would need two packs also.  (Mine would NOT supply two AC50's)

Miz


Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: few2many on March 25, 2014, 05:31:38 PM
I'm not referring to two separate sets of windings or two motors, one case. I'm referring to two stators, butted up against each other. Maybe drill out the through bolt holes 1/4" deep on the sides facing each other, and use bushings or roll pins to keep them aligned. This would essentially make one stator, one set of windings. This would be a 10" stator. Standard is 5", ev duty and inverter duty are 7-7.5". This would be 10" with one set of windings. Smaller diameter for the rpms, extra length for the, back iron and torque.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 26, 2014, 04:56:34 AM
I think I even made a drawing of one of these....

Yea, I needed to press the rotor shafts out and make a common shaft to mount the two rotors on.  There was a 1/4"
fiberglass spacer in between them. 

The stators also had an aluminum spacer between them, with grooves to match.  The "Super" stator was hand wound like it was one big one. 

The in-hand count stayed the same to handle 650 (controller maximum) amps. BUT, to keep the controller volts the same (60-70) volts, it was only one turn, 4 pole, dual layer , as the spacer area needed counted towards the total resistence.

A new housing, aluminum, water cooled, normal end bells with longer bolts. 

I think we shelved the idea until we ran out of other ideas....and had more money too...LOL

Miz 

PS: thinking back on it, I think We decided that the rotors usually do not remove as the poured aluminum held them together, Thus needs NEW rotor plates AND no way to pressure mold a rotor.  THEN it could use a continuous stator. 

A hand fabricated rotor could work, that was done in the early years before aluminum injection molding was invented.

It was do-able, but still a lot more expensive.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: few2many on March 27, 2014, 07:55:43 PM
I can understand cooling the case. However, isn't most heat built up in the rotor?
Where are you finding these motors? I'd like to try and find 2 similar, 10-15hp 2 pole motors. I'd use this as a start.
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 28, 2014, 05:25:12 AM
Good question:  Rotor or stator? 

This is still in debate actually, but I tend to think the rotor might be hotter of the two, but the stator creates more heat.

OK, the copper coils in the stator perform work by conducting a ton of electrons through them.  But, it is in conduction with the outer case, so at the end of the day, while making a lot of heat, it gets drawn away also.

The rotor is a simple beast.  It sits there supported at the ends by two bearings and a drive coupler.  It gets both convective heat from the stator plus the work induced heat in it's self......with very little area for conducting or convecting the heat away.

The bearings run hot. The coupler and output shaft run hot also.  They draw off little of the accumulated heat.  The rotor runs hot.  But, it can do so easily.  What is it going to hurt?  It takes a lot to melt aluminum, steel and iron.  The temperatures reached are not nearly enough to cause it to warp. 

The bearings are the only thing that might suffer and they are designed to perform their jobs while hot.  Hi temp grease and seals handle it nicely. 

The cooler the copper in the stator is, the less current it draws to perform the same work.  It is a distinct advantage to keep the stator as cold as you can for this one and only benefit. 

I am currently using air only as my coolant.  The motion of traveling down the road causes air to travel over the aluminum finned case, drawing off BTU's of heat.  Simultaneously, Heat is created on every acceleration run. 

Green light-GO (heat cycle).  Coast/stop/sit (cooling cycle)   And over and over again until I park.  I have measured and documented this many times.     

"If the cooling cycle is of sufficient duration, the motor will achieve a stabilized temperature point and get no hotter."
"If the cooling cycle is even slightly too short, the motor will gradually rise in temperature until the controller de-rates, then shuts down."  (I have seen this many times.) 

We want the coolest stator temperature to achieve the lowest electron flow. (current draw-mileage.)  The rotor is just along for the ride and can run as hot as it wants with no real effect. (IMHO- My experience)

A really nice experiment would be a hollow rotor shaft for water to flow.  Drive dry and drive wet. Record results...interesting.

Miz

PS: (again-IMHO) If your driving in short city stop and go, you will need more cooling than I do driving moderate stops, in a rural environment.  (Not long enough cooling cycle time)
 

Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on April 01, 2014, 12:56:11 AM
Earth shaking news!

Ivan has actually worked on his truck!
___________________________________________________________________________ _____
Truth.  Ivan has taken the first irretrievable step towards finishing his Sonoma, He has wound his motor. 

On his last trip to Tucson, he reported to me that a large quantity of Mike's hard lemonade and copper wire was used in an effort to get that pile of parts moving under it's own power.

He still needs to attach his motor leads and mount the encoder before mounting the motor to the truck.

All of our "Grats" go out to him on this boundless effort.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on April 03, 2014, 02:19:08 PM
Progress!
___________________________________________________________________________ ____

My SLA batteries arrived today.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/Mobile%20Uploads/508BD6AA-1D4C-4085-9A9E-4E8221852B42_zpsrhdmi48v.jpg)
They are two/32AH SLA cells. 

The two of them use exactly the same space as the one old leaky corroded PB/Acid battery. (Except they are 1/2" taller...leaving me 1/2" clearance to the cover lid.  I could not make anything tighter if I tried.

BTW: They cost $42.00/each....Amazon.....(I love them)

Installation is the same as the old battery, the same clamp and bolts.  This time, it will stay clean and no corrosion.
 
I plan to install an onboard charger for them, spliced into the 240 VAC lead to the Elcon, using a leg and neutral for 120 VAC. 

I used the same set up on my old Jet Electra for a year and a half without a hickup.

The DC/DC converter will then be only used if I drive at night and only if the lights dim or flicker, saving the pack for traction duties to get max mileage.

We have a new plan.  The other 20 HP motor Ivan has in the shop has a slightly smaller I.D. stator and a shorter rotor (5"),
Meaning it has a lot more back iron than the present one.  With the same winding pattern, it should not have the saturation problems and RPM a little higher with a slightly lower current draw. 

I will keep all of you posted as I make progress.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 03, 2014, 10:14:36 AM
UPDATE:
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________
Ivan brought the new motor down for us to install.  SO, I removed the old motor before he got here.
 
We got the new motor installed, it required some holes to be elongated due to the output shaft length difference.

We also got the controller re-flashed to an open VCL format so the new motor will have a chance of being properly adjusted in all parameters.
We then went through every setting and checked or changed them to reflect my last motor's settings.  That gives a good starting place for the new motor
to be optimized.

We ran out of time and the batteries were too low to start the optimization. That needs a full charge because it does some strenuous pulls to gauge the saturation
and power requirements for the new motor.  SO, It looks like Sunday before I get back to it, as I have a "Family" day planned for me tomorrow....LOL

Miz   
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 03, 2014, 10:42:05 AM
Today:
___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

I plan to do the optimization this afternoon as soon as all of the crowd leaves.

The pack is nicely charged up as is the auxiliary set of SLA cells.

I could have done the optimization with the car jacked up and the tires in the air, but it is kinda intimidating to be next to those rear tires spinning so fast.  Plus the Curtis instructions 
prefers it to be done with NO drag at all.  I have done it both ways in the past and it gave similar results.

 The optimization should not take long and I then need to reinstall the driveshaft before driving.

The plan is to drive the car "as optimized" before changing anything.   I need to watch and note the RPM that the motor starts to lag a little and acceleration slows down.  That is when the field saturation is growing to the point where full saturation is near and you must then start thinking about field weakening to gain any more RPM.

The next thing to adjust is the slip.  I will note the slip that is set into the controller by the optimization procedure, but Ivan has already done all of this on the Dyno and established that 2.10 slip gives the best torque at rotor stall (at zero shaft speed.)  So, I then set the slip at 2.10.

I then must look at the recommended field weakening base speed. (That should be near that RPM I noticed when first accelerating where it slowed a little.)  I usually average the two and set my base speed.

The last and most important two parameters are the Field weakening percentage and rate.  Two settings that designate the field weakening curve for the motor. It gives you an extended torque range while keeping a reduced current draw.

Setting the field weakening curve is a little tricky.  One parameter changes the other also, so you need to watch closely and keep GOOD notes.  Once you have the best settings for acceleration and drive-ability, you need to fine tune it to keep that performance level while reducing the current draw.

Thats it in a nutshell.  It just takes a while to do, but this is my 5th or 6th time through it and should go smoothly.

Miz

 
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 08, 2014, 04:54:49 AM
New Motor
___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
I finally got the new motor optimized.  After the optimization procedure, the controller field weakening is
set to ZERO/ZERO. That way when you go for that first drive, you can notice the RPM at which the motor
starts to slow it's RPM gain (pulling).That is the point near where you want the field weakening base speed to be set to. 
The optimization procedure sets the base speed to a certain figure.  You can then compare the performance
with the actual set value.

My slip was 4.97 (as set by the controller).  This motor showed peak torque of 178 Ft. Lbs at 2.10 slip on the dyno.
Some changes will be made there for sure.

My motor was set to 1097 RPM. It drove well past that, indicating that for my service usage, I could delay the
field weakening some more than they recommend.  I got to 2100 RPM before stopping for traffic. (57 MPH with 4.10 gearing)

I need to change back to my 6.14 gear set. 

SO, back up on the jacks, drain the axle and out the gears came. 

Tomorrow, I will finish the gear swap and maybe get some driving done.

Miz
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: HighHopes on May 10, 2014, 04:47:01 AM
what is that picture?  did you salvage that part?
Title: Re: Our test mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 10, 2014, 05:00:08 AM
Good morning HH:

That was a pic of me taking the 4.10 gears out to put the 6.14 gears back in.
The new motor seems to have a LOT more RPM potential.

I got interrupted and can finally complete the gear change today.

The new motor has a slightly smaller diameter rotor and 2" shorter in length.
The stator has less slots, but they are giant and will take a LOT of wire to fill.

To keep the voltage the same, the in hand wire count was increased to achieve slot fill.

There is no way in hell this controller can hurt this motor.  It is wound for maybe 1,000 amps! 

Ivan did a wonderful job on it. (even if he did not paint it and it is an ugly gray color)

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 14, 2014, 04:01:41 PM
The final product:
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________
The first picture is Ivan's water cooled motor in the foreground.  It has already been dynoed and is ready for installation.
The ugly motor in the background is my second motor.  It too has just come off of the dyno. 

The second picture is the ugly motor installed in my car.  It runs well.  No surprizes either.  It pretty much performs as we guessed.
A little softer for the torque on takeoff, but it keeps pulling smoothly right up to and well past the old motor.

YES, It does get painted....LOL  I will need to pull it again to have the rotor re balanced as I feel a slight vibration above 3,000 RPM ,
So Paint is in the plan.  Maybe some other detailing too.  Miz

 
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 17, 2014, 04:17:50 PM
I had a dentist appointment friday and got the first time to really drive the car some distance.....38 miles.

It is fast enough to keep up from the light. (the other motor was quite rapid).

But as traffic kept accelerating my old car would gradually drop back doing the posted speed limit...

Well, it keeps with thetraffic and pulls all the way up strong.

I even have the field weakening turned off too....lol

It easily went the 38 miles and seemed to have maybe another ten easily.

Well, all for now..

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on May 20, 2014, 02:11:04 AM
wondering if you could clarify what battery you are using for normal daily EV activities?  you show 2 SLA batteries, 12V, 32AH.  I'm assuming this was for test only, surely your car has more batteries than this especially if you try to reach 72V pack value.   

do you normally use SLA?  or do you use Lithiium Ion?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 20, 2014, 05:40:19 AM
Hello, HH:

Those two small SLA batteries are for the car 12 VDC system. (Lights, controller coolant pump and
the small 12 VDC relay that turns on the pack voltage to pre charge the controller caps.)

I am running a traction pack of 38/ 130 AH Lithium prismatic cells. 
This is a shot of the left half of the pack equipped with a mini-BMS system.
It is simple and works well.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on May 20, 2014, 05:17:02 PM
that makes a lot more sense :)

can i ask how much $ a traction pack like that would cost new?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 21, 2014, 12:12:08 AM
At that time...late 2012...it cost $1.25/Ah.       So, one 130 AH cell cost  $162.50
Times 38 cells=  $6,175     Plus 350 shipping= TOTAL $ 6,525


Now cells are more....(like I have only heard word of mouth)   $1.45/ AH   Which means $188.50/cell
$7,163/ pack plus shipping.  Over  $1,000 increase in 1.5 years.........

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on May 21, 2014, 04:50:36 AM
Just got a Volt traction pack for 2300 delivered from a wrecking yard.   360 v @ 16kWh for .15 a wh.   In modules of 120 v, 96 v  and 72 v.  Water cooled/ heated, relays, fuses and possibly a bms with ov/uv protection all in this ugly armor T case.

I'd show battery porn, But the forum won't allow it
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: rtz on May 21, 2014, 09:07:13 AM
You can upload images here:  http://postimage.org/ then post the links here.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 21, 2014, 08:40:08 PM
Pete:

On the post/reply page, just under the posting window is "Attachments and other options".

In that you will find the "Attach"  and "Browse"  where you can upload pics directly to your post without having to upload them to another internet site.

Like this one:  (My little girl Chow, "Electra", at 6 months old)

Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 11, 2014, 04:08:14 PM
Big doin's this week!
___________________________________________________________________________ _____________

I decided to bite the bullet and make this motor permanent.

I first pulled the driveshaft and sent it to the shop for shortening.  (4.5")
I wanted to set the motor back to where it belonged.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/096E67C9-B176-46E4-9B3D-DD58CAA26DF5_zpsyjch1eph.jpg)Just needs some green/satin and a polyurethane top coat before installation.


I pulled the motor and will take it to Ivan's Garage (Hey that sounds like a good name for a web site....)
SO he can work some magic over it.  Like get the rotor custom balanced, slide the stator over so I can turn the motor around and have the cables come out under my controller (It makes the cables VERY short.)  He also will run the therm-resistor wires over to the other side, so all of the wiring is on the right side.  Plus he is going to remove the huge face mount and put my old rear drive end cover back on.  I do not need the face mount.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/E2CA42B5-7D3A-4633-87DA-3AD02205D6D5_zpsyskei7g8.jpg)
This motor has good RPMs.  I have had it to 4,300 RPM and it wanted more.  My driveshaft or motor was vibrating and out of balance, So I stopped there.  I am eager to get it back together and try it for top speed.  My pencil says I should have about 73 MPH.

I am presently NOT using any field weakening....LOL  After I get a top RPM established, I will start trying different combinations of settings to see what I can possibly get while retaining my  goal of reducing the amperage draw. 

This is a wonderful motor. It is decent enough in torque to easily keep up with all the soccer Moms in traffic, and still cruise at 45 MPH on 90 Amps.

With this set up, my pack is the real limitation.  I need double the AH in cells to do this motor/controller justice.  (And I do not have the space)

But I will live with my 50 miles range and be pleased.


I need to remove and paint my E-brake lever that I had made up.  It works well so no alterations are needed.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/44A8A0EE-FC6D-42D1-8AD2-20C663A388AD_zpsgiic8es8.jpg)

I need to touch up my flooring in places where I had drilled into it and plugged the shifter hole.

Lastly, I think I need to recheck my ring & pinion back lash after it has been run in some. 

The front left brake hose needs replaced.  I think it has a minor weep somewhere as the paint at the frame and tie rod is peeling in two spots.

Miz

Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on June 11, 2014, 05:41:28 PM
that would be like $14K in batteries...  yikes! 

custom motor/rotor balancing would make a great post ...  :Tt0:
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on June 11, 2014, 06:54:26 PM
that would be like $14K in batteries...  yikes! 

custom motor/rotor balancing would make a great post ...  :Tt0:

What are you talking about?  video on balancing rotor?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 11, 2014, 08:08:48 PM
Good idea Ivan!

You can handle it.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on June 14, 2014, 03:49:40 PM
Miz dropped off his motor this morning, I tore it down put it in the barbecue and got it to 250 degrees so I could slide the stator.  We want to turn the motor around so the leads will be on the right rear closer to the controller. All so moved the thermister.  Made a plate for the wires (leads) to exit the motor.

Miz is coming over Tuesday  morning and we are going to take the rotor over to the motor shop and balance the rotor.  After that it is up to Miz, paint, polish..??  I was thinking chrome???
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: few2many on June 14, 2014, 04:58:29 PM
Brushed aluminum!
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 15, 2014, 06:19:59 AM
Polished alum....old school. The powder paint guys have a baked chrome that is close to polish,  but DIY on  a buffer is cheaper..
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 15, 2014, 12:34:20 PM
OK, compromise?

I am thinking...paint it all forest green, then hit the top of the fins with a sanding disk and then polyurethane clear it all.
Gloss green with bare aluminum on the fin tips...! Yea.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: few2many on June 16, 2014, 04:09:57 PM
Yeah, That looks good on finned valve covers! Should look good on your motor case.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 16, 2014, 07:47:23 PM
Well, tomorrow, I go to Tucson and visit Ivan's Garage.  (HeH)

We plan to take my rotor to the motor shop and get it custom balanced.  They did a great job on the last one. 
It ran extremely smooth. This one had a slight vibration at and above 3,100 RPM. 

I am looking at 5,000 RPM if I can get it.  (I could run up to 4,300 RPM's without any field weakening)

My top speed would be about 75 MPH with my gearing and tires.

 :mE>:

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 18, 2014, 05:19:23 PM
I had a fine day yesterday at Ivan's shop.
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________

We took a side trip over to the motor shop to get my rotor rebalanced.  They really fussed with it and took their time to get it as close as possible.  Then we went back to Ivan's and drilled the drive end bell with some "air-holes".  I just wanted to make sure both ends were ventilated equally when in operation, as Ivan had drilled out the encoder end before. (The last motor had a 2" O.D. hole in it for forced air to be blown in, but the gains were small and I wanted to omit it this time around).


Pic 1= The new motor center section with the stator moved over so I could turn the rotor around and place the three motor leads right under the controller.

Pic 2= The newly painted end bells.

Pic 3=  The newly painted emergency brake lever.

Pic 4=  The coupler spacer which will allow me to seal in the grease in the splines.

Pic 5=  The cleaned up and painted motor bay.

Pic 6=  The  new bearing spacer to keep the shaft end play to .007".


All are awaiting tomorrow when the paint is dry and assembly can begin.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 19, 2014, 05:57:00 AM
Good Morning everyone!
___________________________________________________________________________ ________________________

Today will see a good deal of progress.  I should have everything newly painted and cleaned
so assembly can start.  The emergency brake lever can just bolt back in with no adjustments,
as it worked well before.  The driveshaft can bolt in as well. 

The motor case, however, needs to have the fins sanded with a wooden block and paper.
I will possibly do the end bells as well.

Then assemble it without the encoder so I can give it a heavy coat of polyurethane clear for protection.

That will postpone driving the car for another day.......OR....

I could hang it from the motor hoist and clear the under side, then set it into the car before clearing the rest.....

That sounds better to me.

Pics later.      :el>:

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 19, 2014, 04:53:21 PM
Today:

I got the motor assembled and installed in the car.

Also installed the e-brake lever.

Then the heat drove me indoors.  Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on June 19, 2014, 05:06:09 PM

At least it looks better than that grey piece of junk!   :sf<:
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 20, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
I got back into the garage early this morning.  I just about finished off
everything but the three motor leads at the controller.  And as luck would
have it everyone I checked with did not have the correct ring terminal ends,
So I ordered some off of Amazon, to be delivered by wednesday...Bummer....

I did take an updated pic of the car.  Miz

Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 21, 2014, 07:25:03 AM
What happened to the polish job on the motor fins?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 21, 2014, 12:08:24 PM
Uh...Uh...The paint or the aluminum adhesion must have been a problem as it chipped badly when I was sanding it.

I tried to use fine paper, but it would have taken a week due to clogging.  Coarser paper caused big chips to fly off the fins.

So, I am going to wait till it has a few heat cycles and try it again.  It is easy to touch up. 

(I might try lacquer thinner also)

Painting was never my best subject, but somehow I wound up doing a lot of it over the years
and learned to be persistent.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 21, 2014, 02:03:04 PM
Enamels are like that until they get baked.  Theory about couple cycles is good.  Next time try wet sanding.    MEK also. But watch out for closet narcs down your way

AutoZone in the battery section had copper lugs up to 4/0.   $ 3.98 for 2.  I was surprised.  Some at home despot but not above 2/0, depending on local store and 2X $.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 22, 2014, 05:44:45 AM
Good morning!

I even checked the local welding supply where I fill my oxy/acet bottles.
The real challenge is that they only had a 3/8" & 1/2" holes in them.
I wanted to hold out for a 5/16" hole, don't know if it really helps with the contact area or not.

In the past, I have silvered pennys to the ring and redrilled the hole. Ugly and too much work.

Building the perfect single speed car has been a real pain.  But, I think we have it finally with this motor.

That plus Ivan's 10 HP motor is almost as strong as my 20 HP.(stall torque wise.)

So, I would have to say that about a 15 HP, 2 pole motor (rewired 4 pole) would be the all around best with this Curtis controller
And a moderate sized pack. 

My 130 AH pack is just a little weak to supply my motor to it's fullest extent, but with my 1,900 Lb car, it is enough.

I have a nise jump off the line and keep up with traffic nicely. (I am usually up with the soccer moms)     :Ah#:

More performance data after I get the lugs and drive it a little.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 24, 2014, 05:43:29 AM
GOOD NEWS!
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________
My ring terminals arrived on monday, 2 days early...YES!

(BAD NEWS)

They sent 2 Ga  instead of 2/0 Ga..............

Called-complained-assured replacements sent ASAP.

(Big deal)

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 27, 2014, 08:47:18 PM
Replacement ring terminals arrived this evening USPS.
They were even the right size and everything!

With an early start, I might get in some driving time tomorrow!

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 28, 2014, 03:55:17 PM
Progress...Finally,
___________________________________________________________________________ ______________________

Early this morning, I went out into the garage and finished up the motor leads.
This is what it looks like:
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 28, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
I also made a new front cover to eliminate the old one with the bad fitting cut out.

I also bought two special screws to mount it, as the old ones were a couple of pieces of all-thread
and quite tacky looking. 

The first drive was very nice.  It takes right off smoothly and accelerates up to cruising speed with no problems.
I once jetted up to 65 MPH to see how it drove. That was without any field weakening.....

I then set the field weakening base speed to 3,800 RPM and the percentage to 5% with the curve to 5% also.

On the next drive, the motor started bucking and cutting out at about 68 MPH.......It also started gaining a great deal of heat.

So, I shut the field weakening off again. In reality, 65 MPH is fast enough for an around town car and I usually just drive 50 MPH (in a 45 MPH zone).

It is a dream to drive.  While it will not keep up with an 11" DC motor, It does keep up with traffic easily and only draws between 85-95 amps
when cruising  at 45 MPH. (Which was my two goals)

The most I ever saw was a 435 Amp draw under hard acceleration.  I attribute this to the 2 turns on each pole.  But, the small 130 AH cells are not up to
feeding the full potential of this motor.  A pack twice this size would be more like it. 

In reality, I would expect a small modest gain for doubling the pack size.  Not really worth the cost to me.

I continue to watch and perform small adjustments and sometime next week, I want to get a genuine zero to 60 MPH test to compare it with the AC50/powerglide set up.
(Zero- 60 MPH using low and high gears = 10.5 seconds.) (Zero to 60 MPH using high gear only= 12.7 seconds)

I will post the result then.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on June 29, 2014, 04:08:35 PM
sounds like something is not quite right with your field weakening setup.  setting of 5% is really low, i wouldn't expect it to cause such hot motor.  maybe something in your settup was not right.. maybe you did 95% instead of the 5% you though?

by "not keep up" with 11" DC motor, do you mean top speed, acceleration, or both?  there are a lot of variables to make this comparison valid.  maybe your top speed is less but the DC motor pulls 150A while you do 75A  (just for argument sakes, i through random numbers out there).  probably the only fair_ish way to make this test is to minimize the variable.  fully charged battery.  set course, set acceleration times.  then change nothing but the motor & controller and repeat.   same car, same driver.. etc.  even if in the end the DC motor performs better.. it probably costs way more than your induction motor cause you are able to get the motor from the trash and rewind it yourself. 
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 29, 2014, 06:36:11 PM
No, 5% and 5%.  It is telling me that at the time I set for the weakening to start, the motor was not needing field weakening. 

And Yes,  Field weakening when over done will cause heating.  The motor stator is still trying to magnetize the rotor while the controller is trying to demagnetize.
Field weakening can be done effectively only after the benefits of the full field flux is just about over and any further efforts to magnetize is going to
be less effective at the cost of excessive current.

I mean that a 11"DC motor can out accelerate 0-60 MPH over this AC motor, but this motor is less demanding of current, and has a good enough acceleration for a direct drive set up.
Top RPM I think they are just about even.

Costs were not mentioned.  My motor is probably worth about $1,200 and a used 11" DC motor can be gotten for nearly the same.  The DC controller is cheaper though.......

As I have done on many occasions, stated: A direct drive AC motor is a tricky thing to build.  It needs low end torque, decent top RPM AND all at a low current draw........

A DC motor would out perform on the low end but the cost would be twice the current of my motor.

I have seen 500 AMps from a 20HP Prestolite  Dc motor in a 3,000Lb car in low gear up to maybe 3,000 RPM. before it starts dropping off. (starts high and gets lower as RPMs increase)

My AC motor starts out at 150 amps and takes about 2,500 RPM to get up to 450 Amps.  (Starts lower and increases with RPM)  When I back off to a cruise, it drops from 450 Amps to 90 Amps)

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on September 30, 2014, 05:07:31 AM
OK, so much for all the theory-esque stuff.  Time for some action....

Ivan has decided that it is time to build a NEW motor.  By "New"
 I mean one ordered and bought new in stead of scrounged from
 a motor shop's junk pile.

Ivan has developed contacts with both Curtis and Leeson. 
He has finally gotten some very exciting news about actual
motor construction and decided on the best rotor, stator and
motor housing from which to wind a completely new motor.

The idea being that metallurgy has seen tremendous strides
in the past 20 years. (Like going from analog to digital with electronics)

That allows him to select the best alloy for the rotor and stator plates
as well as getting the long 7" stator/rotor combination necessary for
the best motor possible.  He can order it all as just parts and not as
an assembled motor, making it cheaper by far.

We have a preliminary design for a water jacket to add to the motor
shell before any assembly or painting is done.  This will allow us to
build for the first time, a completely new water cooled EV motor. 

All thats left is to finalize the order and build the motor.  After a
complete optimization and dyno test, I will then install it in my
car to set the field weakening (if needed), and put some miles on it.

I can't wait!

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on September 30, 2014, 05:46:03 AM
You're saying that a 7 inch combo is going to be the equivalent to my 11" dia motor?

Bathtub cooling or channels?

So many questions to ask.....
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: dsquire on September 30, 2014, 08:03:49 AM
Miz

This sounds like an excellent idea. Having a better choice of parts to select from to make the perfect motor for your needs. I'll be watching the progress.  :Ah#: :Ah#:

Cheers :)

Don
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on September 30, 2014, 12:38:07 PM
I am really excited about this project!
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________

I think I am as excited about this motor as I was the first time I opened my AC50 kit...lol

P: We have chosen the parts and are awaiting the engineer to answer some of our basic questions, but I will give
my best guess....

-The rotor/stator is about 6" in diameter (I think).

-The rotor/stator is 7" long.(it is in the high efficiency class.  long rotor/stator, thin laminations, best alloy material-(there are several alloys to choose from)

-Thin drawn/rolled steel housing. (We could have had aluminum, but we wanted to add the cooling jacket.)

-The first jacket will be "bath tub" design. (Our controller cold plate is bathtub also and it stays at 37C even when the motor shuts off at 160C)
 
  (We are trying for simplicity without sacrificing cooling ability.)  The direct contact with the coolant has proven to be excellent on the controller.

-In my situation, I will have mounting plates along the base to sit on my present rail mount.  The motors will come with a "C" face. 

We had been doing and redoing the two 20 HP motors that were well over 20 years old at a minimum.  In the mean time the motor industry must have made some improvements in alloys for the laminations.  Ivan's 10HP motor was a newly built model.  It was an odd metric frame size and the motor shop could not sell it....so they made a great deal to Ivan.  It used the very same winding pattern, turns and wire gauge as my 20 HP frame motor But he had 45 Ft/Lbs more stalled rotor torque than my much larger motor had.....It gave me a pause to think....... 

So, a smaller, more compact package gave out much more torque! 

After running these things for the last couple of years, all with the same Curtis controller (Just changing the windings), When something like this happens, you have to stop and regroup.

The older , large  20 HP frame motors gave 8 Ft/Lbs torque per each 1HP in the rating. 
The small, newer 10 HP frame motors gave 21.8 Ft/Lbs torque per each 1 HP in the rating.

I see two reasons for this.  1- The better alloy and thinner, more numerous laminations.  2-The Curtis controller being overmatched by the larger 20HP motor.
(Yes, Ivan, I remember the Topeka truck, but driving around is not stressing it to the maximum output. (Where the small motors would not be an over draw and the big ones would slowly choke the controller to death.)

We all will be eager to see how the new motors perform.

Miz


 
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: few2many on October 02, 2014, 06:17:05 AM
Instead of external bathtub cooling, have you thought about internal oil cooling? Direct some misters or sprayers at either either end of the rotor, and the spinning would sling it all over the stator ends. Doesn't the rotor see most of the heat any how?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on October 03, 2014, 05:00:51 AM
One issue at a time.  Later maybe, but it has too many things to solve at this time. 

I already have a coolant tank at hand and only need to attach a second pump (which I already own).

Miz

PS:  The rotor is so very robust that heat would have to reach 2,000+ to even hurt it...But the stator is the fragile part. Especially the unsupported wire ends where there is no direct conduction to a cooler surface.  That is where I burned every one I have overheated.  So in that instance, cooling the rotor would not help much, but the liquid slinging to the wire ends on the stator would.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on October 03, 2014, 05:55:09 PM
that's pretty interesting;  how much $ is better performance worth?  we'll find out  :)

Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on October 03, 2014, 06:00:53 PM
It is going to be a lot cheaper than HPEVs.

So better performance-lower price.....

(It only took us 3 years and $6,000 in materials to find out).

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Horizon on October 05, 2014, 02:56:44 AM
Great news, excited to read about it.
For the 10 HP vs the 20 HP I see it as the 10HP can be pushed more but it will get hotter in shorter period of time for the nominal Curtis votage. If you were able to wire a controller that would be 30%~40% higher nominal voltage to the 20 HP motor then you could expect a upscaled performance of the 10 HP one. (This is just my guess)
Talking about the materials, I would like to try fitting a bigger HP rating rotor to a smaller HP rating stator.
Probably the diameter for the bearings on the bell ends should be drilled bigger but I think it will be worth to try and see what the performance would be. Of course the ratings will be small in difference (say 10 hp rated stator with 11 hp rated rotor). Changing the space between the rotor and stator will surely result in better torque so if we are running a one gear system, the ratio could go up to get higher speed since already we have bigger torque to start with than using a standardly paired stator and rotor using the same rewind.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on October 05, 2014, 04:16:37 AM
We use a Curtis controller because they are affordable and easy to get.  There are better ones out there, but they are out of the question in our opinion. (Unless something happens to change that)

You can not mix-n-match motor parts because the sizes are just too far apart to allow this. 

It is hard to out guess a professional engineer.  The nominal rotor/stator gaps are as such because they are a good mix of tight but big enough to pass normal debris without damage.  (Besides, my opinion is that the great deal of work necessary to tighten it up will not give very much increased performance.)

You can not "Push" a motor as it is a fly by wire system.  You ask the controller for something and it decides if the conditions are right for that to happen.  THEN it makes the change you asked for ....maybe, maybe not.  It decides.

There is more power to be gained by selecting the correct motor size for your pack and car size.

ANY three phase industrial motor can be rewound, BUT there is a lot of difference in what each size will do.  A cheap motor may not be ideal for your car.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on October 27, 2014, 02:42:34 PM
 :mE>:  Went and picked up the new motor today and all ready got it tore down.
              Cut the head off and put it on the turkey cooker to burn it out.  I am hoping
              for 250 ft/lbs of locked rotor torque.   Oh, Its a 7-inch stator iron and rotor.
              Gona use a encoder bearing and maintain the fan over cooling.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/106iyjt.jpg)

Its a Weg (01018ersr215tc) 
WEG AC MOTOR, 10HP, 1800RPM, 215T Frame, 208-230/460V, THREE-PHASE - TEFC (IP55), ROLLED STEEL FRAME, NEMA PREMIUM EFFICIENCY, C-FACE FOOTLESS, 1.25 SERVICE FACTOR, 28.1-25.4/12.7  MGI Part 31 rating for use with VFD 
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on October 27, 2014, 08:26:52 PM
for a common industrial motor, that's about as good as it gets.  hope you get great results!
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on October 28, 2014, 03:25:46 AM
for a common industrial motor, that's about as good as it gets.  hope you get great results!

Hey,   :V^:  don't be calling that common, Its  PREMIUM EFFICIENCY (91.7)

Ivan
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on October 28, 2014, 08:30:02 AM
It is more about the Newer alloy in the stator/rotor than the 25+ year old ones we have used in the past.

Ivan's newer 10HP motor has a stronger locked rotor torque, by far, than the big 20HP I have in my car.  Why,
I can only speculate. Back iron, allow and plate thinness. (The thinner the plate, the more of them there is)

We are finally on the right track now.  Time will tell.....

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on October 30, 2014, 06:08:39 PM
 :dD(:

Well so much for a encoder bearing,  10 hours computer time and can't seem to find one.
Unbelievable
 
Miz and I have searched for.

SKF  BMB-6206/064S2/EA002a  none in the USA  8-10 weeks delivery from germany, 
303.00 bucks

NSK encoder bearing 6206V  china  can't find a place to buy..

Ivan
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on October 30, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
It seems that the ONLY OEM usage for an encoder bearing was on a unicorn horn.

Good used ones are rare and service replacement parts are even more rare.


PLUS: they are three times as expensive as a standard encoder............

MIZ
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on November 01, 2014, 11:52:40 AM
i'm not entirely sure what you are looking for by "encoder bearing" but in the past i purchased exactly the type of bearing i was looking for from here

http://www.vxb.com/
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on November 01, 2014, 12:43:52 PM
i'm not entirely sure what you are looking for by "encoder bearing" but in the past i purchased exactly the type of bearing i was looking for from here

http://www.vxb.com/

Look at post 282
http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.msg1639#msg1639

(http://i58.tinypic.com/106iyjt.jpg)
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on November 01, 2014, 01:36:35 PM
maybe you would have better luck searching for a resolver.  they often have large diameter arpetures, also they are way more accurate so you will squeeze just that much more torque out.

or better yet, just go sensorless and save yourself the trouble!
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on November 01, 2014, 05:06:50 PM
maybe you would have better luck searching for a resolver.  they often have large diameter arpetures, also they are way more accurate so you will squeeze just that much more torque out.

or better yet, just go sensorless and save yourself the trouble!

It has to be compatible with the controller..
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on November 01, 2014, 07:47:04 PM
Dude!  A resolver is not an encoder and is not usable with the Curtis Controllers we prefer.

ALSO: There is no option to go "Sensorless" in the 1238 Curtis series controllers.

Study, grasshopper and all will become clear.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on December 29, 2014, 07:54:50 PM
We have finally decided on the next (Maybe last) motor build.
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________

We have gotten a brand new, off the shelf, 10 HP 3 phase motor.  It is a decoder duty high efficiency model with a 7" diameter X 7" long rotor.

We finally found a reasonably priced, easily available model that will be easy to duplicate....over and over again.

It has been burned out and the old wiring has been removed.  Ivan has cleaned it up and repainted the interior in
anticipation of rewinding it soon.  (No pressure, Ivan...LOL)

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: HighHopes on December 30, 2014, 05:03:26 AM
did you find your encoder bearing?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on December 30, 2014, 05:06:57 AM
 :dD(:  No tried for days, can't believe they are not available in the USA.

One guy I talked to said 8-10 weeks from Germany . F-it.

Ivan
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on December 30, 2014, 08:02:03 AM
Encoder bearings are kept on the unicorn shelf in the stores.
When you first ask, they say "They ain't no such a thang!"

When you insist, they can show you a picture.

When you try to order they try to scare you off with a price.

I have not gotten to the order part yet, but....they probably say, "the order goes both ways with
Santa and only takes Russian Rubles"

The chances of you doing any better than both of us is no better than "NOT".

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on January 02, 2015, 07:01:18 AM
Raymond or Toyota forklifts don't use these or are they odd sized?
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: Ivan on January 02, 2015, 07:11:09 AM
Raymond or Toyota forklifts don't use these or are they odd sized?

They are standard size bearings 6206.

Ivan
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 02, 2015, 07:55:10 AM
At $300,  I am sure that the bearing house would "order" one.
(After several calls and mistaken ideas.)
_________________________________________________________________________
Ivan is going to add a stub shaft to the existing motor on the fan end. 
We are keeping the fan and the original housing at this point.
I am proposing to make a "Spider" like mount over the factory air intake screen. 
About 14 Ga.  Stainless if I have it.  THEN mount the encoder. 
(The same encoder that was on the AC50 and the same one I am using on all of the other motors.)

After two years of driving, The frame has only light dust on it, so the encoder should stay clean.
But, I do have an idea to make a small belly pan at that point to isolate it from the road.
Hell, I might do a complete belly pan under the motor also, who knows.....

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on January 03, 2015, 07:50:24 AM
Make a full belly pan and really increase the aerodynamic efficiency
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 04, 2015, 09:00:51 AM
"Make a full belly pan and really increase the aerodynamic efficiency"

Ya, but at my age, working with my hands over my head for so long would be my real test....LOL
 :O):
Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on January 16, 2015, 05:25:26 PM
Sorry to be taking so long, but the holidays were a little hectic. 

We should be getting back to work in February  2015
Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on March 03, 2015, 03:02:58 PM
UPDATE:
___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________

At this point, the motor is wound and Ivan has determined that the slot top sticks are too small and might allow
 a wire to poke out (Not a good thing I am told...LOL)  So, A larger size set is on order.  It might take a couple of weeks.

Then the motor leads can be attached, the phase papers can be inserted, the wire returns carefully beaten into shape
and tied with motor string.  I think (and I might be wrong) that Ivan will do a dyno pull at that time, before he encases it in resin. 

After he makes sure it is operating as expected, it can be dipped and baked in his custom made oven.

The last operation would be to cut the splines for the slip yoke.

After I get it, I will case harden it as I did the first motor.  There was no wear at all on the first motor,
but the second motor did wear a little as I had not hardened it (I assume) and it became just a tad loose.

If it runs half as good as Ivan's beautiful water cooled motor in his truck, I will be in heaven.

NOTE:  To get optimum torque and power from a custom motor, You MUST have your controller re-flashed with open software. 
It allows perfect tuning of the motor instead of being locked into parameter settings that limit performance.  (Having now
experienced it, I wish I had this software with the AC50.  I am sure it would have made a difference.)

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on May 25, 2015, 05:03:03 AM
It is now May 25th.  Ivan and I have been busy with life stuff and not progressed much on the new motor. 
There is only a few slots that need sticks, the motor leads need soldered on, the phase papers added then
it needs to be string tied before the varnish is applied and baked.

The last item is the re-machining of the output shaft. It needs turned down to the powerglide diameter and
spline d  to take the old PG slip yoke. 

I am looking forward to driving it and am curious to the HP/TQ difference.

Miz   
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 16, 2015, 10:32:36 PM
It is now June 16th.  Life has ganged up on Ivan and me and we have made no real progress. 

Sometimes I think there is a conspiracy to kill all EV projects.

Miz
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 17, 2015, 06:00:47 AM
Been following 2 threads about bigger vids.  Eldis in diyE, Paul H in ecomodder.  Causes me to wonder what would happen if you had access to a 500amp controller with your motor.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 17, 2015, 10:24:16 AM
It would be heaven, but It would need a second pack to utilize it.  The present controller is capable of pulling down this pack to 2.5 volts per cell, even on a full charge.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 18, 2015, 06:11:12 AM
You know I have a chevy pack split in half and paralleled?  At around 850 amps I'm showing 2.03 which hasn't  killed the pack in 16 months, as long as it bounces back after I get off it.   I am more worried about the kostov brushes.
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: mizlplix on June 21, 2015, 02:09:50 AM
Ya, ,I know what you mean, I dont worry too much about the sag, just the sitting voltage too.

To date, the little green car has been setting around 8 months.  The pack is just sitting there and taking it well.  as it should of course. 
It is the aux battery system that takes maintanence.  It runs dead in two weeks if I don't run a 2 amp overnite charge cycle.  It has at least two systems running full time, The Amp gauge and the BMS boards.  Each draws less than .3 amp but takes it's toll.

Every two weeks I walk by to hear a faint whistling noise and realize it is the aux battery LOW signal from the BMS headboard crying for a charge "or else".  I could just turn it off at the aux power emergency switch but it just gives me the realization that the car is still alive and needs some maintenance.

If driven at least one 5 mile trip one day per two week period, this does not even happen.

Once per 6 months I run a charge top off cycle of the main pack,  I never gets beyond the over the knee portion and runs maybe 12-15 minutes at a floating voltage.

A decent pack health I have come to realize.

Miz

PS:  Since they were new, I have done the following:

1- Received the cells in the freight shipment. Lined them up and paralleled them in series for two weeks.  Although they measured within .017 volt spread, their real amp capacity spread was much, much different.

2- at 1 month of running hard motor test cycles, I spent 3 days with a 5 amp lithium charger equalizing the cells a little closer.

3- at one year, I spent 3 more days chasing the low cells , again bringing them even closer to even.  I paid $450 for the bare bones cell board with a small head board analog BMS system.  Installed it and enabled the 5 watt top balance feature.  I watched it work every daily charge and it did work to even up the top balance closer.

4- One year later, I did another manual balance of  1 day to bring up 10 of the lowest cells, which were maybe ,008 volt low.

5- NOW: 6 months later, as I watch the cell boards when the charger shuts off, I see 28 of the 38 cell boards go red, (Doing the 5 watt top balance.  The other ten cells are maybe .006 volt apart. (not worth chasing.

At this point my 1,900 Lb non aerodynamic car gets about 60 miles per charge comfortably. 

BTW: the last time I went to the 60 mile point, a quick voltage check, the cells reported two of them were .01 volt or so lower than the rest.  Those would be the smallest capacity of the pack and still were 132 AH and over the purchased size.  If I were to then bottom balance the pack, it would just shut off the charger that .01 volt early.

So in reality, to me, the whole top/bottom balance deal is moot as the pack is regulated by the weakest cell in it.  In both systems I would drive to the 3.1 volt per cell point and stop as I have about 3 miles left after that point in my pack.  A lesson I had to learn after the car was built, by experience. 

Once when I had it bottom balanced, I could get 4 miles after the 3.1 volt per cell point. ......... Not worth the 3 days per year I spent when I can allow an automated system watch and protect the pack for me at no extra labor. (Just my opinion)

And finally yes, If I really had balanced my pack individually with a small charger, cell by cell, to .006 Volts per cell in the first place, instead of assuming the parallel ing was close, I could/would run without a BMS just fine. (Knowing now that I have a decently grouped bunch of cells).
Title: Re: Our Test Mule
Post by: piotrsko on June 21, 2015, 05:48:58 AM
You have just validated my opinion on the Volt pack.

Keep the top and bottom Voltages conservative and the whole bms thing is a waste of time.  Every so often go look at single cell voltages  At the bottom to see if one is dying.